Short and sweet. (correction: sweet to some) It is impossible to choose a favorite thought, verse, or line in the scriptures, but there is one in my mind that is certainly near the top. In this particular passage, there are two words that stand like Goliath among men, but for different reasons.
After creation and all things being good, in the process of time things went south, and we learn that God sent forth man from the garden, to till the ground from whence he was taken, but what follows is remarkable:
So he (God) drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
We can stay here a long time discussing this text alone, but note the words ‘drove,’ and ‘cherubim.’ Surely you have heard of the cattle drovers and the image they paint, but here we see God is the first drover. This ‘driving’ was in a manner that there could be no return. ‘Out! Go!’ was the idea, and just in case, the flaming swords were a pretty good reminder.
There was a new land to dwell in, and while not maybe far in geography, it was absolutely far in character, where Mr. and Mrs. Adam would resume their lives outside of paradise. What did they know however of the cherubim? My guess is they knew quite well the nature and purpose of those beings, being somewhat familiar with the ‘other’ angel of light.
The cherubim are found rarely in scripture, and each time bring a fresh revelation of God’s ways, ending with their appearance in Revelation. There was an observation in Hebrews regarding the articles in the tabernacle where, in the Holiest of all was the golden censer, the ark of the covenant:
‘And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy-seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
How many thousands of years later, and the writer says he STILL cannot develop the theme of these beautiful beings that represent the origin, purpose, and destiny of God’s ways with man. There is a depth of truth residing in the cherubims beginning with the ‘drover,’ unfolded to Moses, revealed to prophets, fulfilled in Christ, and kept for eternity; it’s no wonder he couldn’t go into detail to explain them properly.
Indeed God drove out man, and the driving reached its final destination at Golgotha’s hill, where man would understand that he falls short of the glory of God. Thankfully, God with equal regard pleads all today to draw nigh, to what the cherubims of glory recognize and sing praise to:
The intrinsic eternal perfection and everlasting mercy of God.
Yes, Adam did a bad thing, as did you and I, but what the Lord did was incomparable. The ‘driving’ proves this, our nature confirms this, and the cherubims agree. To say ‘no!’ to God is kind of foolish, and is quite an insult to He who has gone to such lengths to show such undeserving mercy.
Adam knew not to question or assault the drover. He was found out. Men today challenge God and it’s really not a good idea. Man points his finger at the Creator, and what is God’s response? Nothing, nothing but more grace.
The Lions Den 
Our Bible study last night was on Cherubim. Rather difficult subject. We did narrow it down to the recurring theme of how their sole purpose is to accomplish God’s will and worship Him.
Yes…again it is so great that no matter what we have done God’s grace is gteater than all of our sin. Nice ColorStorm.
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Tks Wally,
Satisfying subject yes. I love those images of the ‘angel’ pointing to Adam and Eve, with their heads sunk, as they were driven.
That’s why grace is so darn amazing…
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I never point my finger at your Creator, I point my finger at the men behind the curtain, the superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze Age men who created your “Creator” —
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ArcH
That is where your opinion takes a detour, for assaulting the men who were TOLD what to write by the God you say you are not ‘pointing the finger’at, is exactly that.
In years past, men have believed with one tenth the proof that you deny.
It’s all there free for the taking. But you are missing the larger point. Man, and this includes you, was ‘driven,’ out from, and all your doubts, questions, and tantrums, post after post of criticizing God’s word, are all proof that you are trying to find the right way back.
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What I use to have problem with was the fact God punished all mankind, not just Adam and Eve. I could not understand such a thing. It did not seem fair, but as I grew older, and I finally read the Bible, I realized that the Bible describes as we are. It was the first book to do so.
In my years as a scientist and engineer, I have learned we have a way of fooling ourselves. We think we understand things, but we don’t. When we think we do understand thing, we just betray a serious lack of wisdom.
What scientists do is create models they call theories. These models exist to portray cause and effect relationships. The better the models predict what happens in the “real world” the better the theory works. Nevertheless, it is foolhardy to say we “understand” much of anything. For example, without understanding them at all, we model the effect of gravitational forces on masses. Thus, we can predict the course of a spaceship, but we have no real explanation as to why objects are attracted to each other. We just have more and more questions.
What the Bible does is provide us a model of our character. The Bible predicts how we behave, and it provides us a method for improving our behavior. We may not understand how those “superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze Age men” ever came up with such a book, but we have not been able to improve upon the wisdom they passed onto us in the Bible. With a book inspired by God, those “superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze Age men” changed our world. So it is I finally accept the Bible as the Truth. The Bible may be difficult to understand and accept, but unless we accept the Bible as true — as our Creator’s handiwork — there is so much more that makes no sense.
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Always appreciate your matter of factness and ‘common sense’ approach Tom in your answers, insights into human nature, testifying to the word of God, and especially the spirit in which you carry your points.
Thank you for adding value to this post.
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If it is your position that “we have a way of fooling ourselves,” then it is not logically consistent to “accept the Bible as Truth.” The statement “it is foolhardy to say we “understand” much of anything” is the perfect way to undermine any claims to to have access to Truth.
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David
When we speak of the Truth with a capital “T”, we speak of the Truth that matters. We don’t claim to know everything, to understand the Truth perfectly, or to be absolutely certain the Truth is the Truth.
In one his books, Mere Christianity, C. S. Lewis explained why faith is a virtue. If we have faith, then we have begun to find the courage and the resolve to act upon what we know to be true.
As strange as it may seem, we find it difficult to act in accord with what we believe to be true. We know, for example, that if we study diligently we will most likely have more success in our careers. Nevertheless, we still find ourselves too easily distracted by entertaining diversions. Because the reward is distant, we have difficulty having faith in the value of hard work. Similarly, when challenged to swim in the deep end of a pool, a child who can swim may still lack the courage to swim anywhere except in shallow water.
Therefore, the Bible speaks of faith, of having faith and being faithful. Because we are weak and cannot know the Truth with certainty, we cannot be entirely faithful to our understanding of the Truth. Only God is entirely faithful. All we can do is strive to be faithful to what our reason tells us must be true.
Does reason tell you that anything is true? Are your actions in concord with that truth? Then you must have faith in that truth. Yet therein lies the problem. Is what you believe to be true the Truth, the Truth that matters?
I believe the Bible is true. I believe the Bible contains the Truth that matters, and so I strive for the faith to act upon that Truth. Whether you will do the same is entirely up to you. However, I suggest you take a moment to contemplate why the Bible is the most influential book ever written. Why is Jesus is the most influential man who ever lived?
When so many people have turned to the Bible and Jesus for wisdom, don’t you think that is enough reason to study the Bible carefully? Yet there are so many people who want us to ignore the Bible. A conspiracy? No. It an ego problem. Too many want to be the center of the universe, but the Bible makes it clear that God is everywhere. He is deserving of the glory, not us. He created everything, including us. God is the hero of the Bible, not us. We are just the hapless sheep He saves from damnation.
Have you had any children? Do you remember growing up? Are you truly grown up?Children are like sheep. We need to be led, but sometimes we insist upon straying. The Bible tells the story of how God saved His children from damnation.
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“Because we are weak and cannot know the Truth with certainty, we cannot be entirely faithful to our understanding of the Truth.”
There is something that’s not clear to me here. Are you saying (1) that you have some doubt about the position that the Bible offers perfect, inerrant, God-given Truth or are you saying (2) that the Bible offers perfect, inerrant, God-given Truth, and you have some doubt about how to interpret this Truth? Or both? Is there anything that you believe with absolute certainty? I don’t want to make assumptions about your position.
“When so many people have turned to the Bible and Jesus for wisdom, don’t you think that is enough reason to study the Bible carefully?”
I didn’t say that there wasn’t any wisdom in the Bible, and yes, I’ve studied it carefully.
I’m not sure that numbers are what matters here. There are a billion Muslims who will tell you that Mohammad is the most influential man who ever lived, but I assume that you would not accept this as an argument in favor of Islam.
“Too many want to be the center of the universe.”
And that’s exactly what the Bible does. It places us (figuratively) at the center of the universe.
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David
(1) that you have some doubt about the position that the Bible offers perfect, inerrant, God-given Truth or are you saying 2) that the Bible offers perfect, inerrant, God-given Truth, and you have some doubt about how to interpret this Truth? Or both?
Both. No man believes anything with absolute certainty.
Faith is the process of overcoming doubt. We overcome doubt by struggling to understand the Truth and by living in accord with the Truth. If we want to have faith in our ability to swim, we must learn to swim and practice swimming.
As to your numbers question. We are copycats. If we have any brains, we copy success. Christianity is a success. Islam is a dismal failure. Yes, Islam is the world’s second largest faith, but Islam rewards the leadership, not the average Muslim.
Faith leaders sometimes pervert Christianity and use their positions to garner power and wealth, and eventually such perversions lead to reformation. The Protestant Reformation is the most famous of these, and for awhile it was quite bloody. However, when all the parties involved agreed the Bible does not condone force conversion, the bloodletting stopped.
Islam requires no perversion. Islamic doctrine gives the leaders of that faith dictatorial powers. The Bible does no such thing. That’s why Christian churches are organized so many different ways. Whereas, Islam tends to be quite tyrannical.
And you say you have I’ve studied the Bible carefully???????????????? If that was so, you would never say such a thing.
Set down with a good commentary and read the Book of Job. It is a story about a man who fears God. Job suffers monstrous calamity, and God never bothers to explain the reason for it. There are some things God is not ready to tell us. I suppose that is because we are not ready to hear these things.
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“Both. No man believes anything with absolute certainty.”
Ah, good. I agree with you completely. I think that this clears up my central point.
“As to your numbers question. We are copycats. If we have any brains, we copy success. Christianity is a success. Islam is a dismal failure. Yes, Islam is the world’s second largest faith, but Islam rewards the leadership, not the average Muslim.”
Um, I think that this is somewhat self-contradicting. If we “copy success,” then numbers are evidence of success, right? Success is measured by the number of copies (almost Darwinian, this). More copies = more success. If Islam is the world’s second largest faith, then by copy cat criterion, it is wildly successful. It doesn’t matter what it rewards.
“And you say you have I’ve studied the Bible carefully???????????????? If that was so, you would never say such a thing.”
You are a single individual in a population of billions. We are a single species out of millions of species on this planet. This planet circles a sun that is one of trillions and trillions of stars in millions of galaxies in a universe that is billions of light years old and billions of light years across.
And yet, somehow, this is all about us. We are the central figures in creation. All of creation was designed for us. We are so important, that this universe-creating entity needs us to love and worship it. This entity just can’t stand it if we don’t love and worship it. We are the ones that it chat with, and we are the ones who are either rewarded with eternal bliss or punished with eternal torture.
Yes, the Bible says that we are center of the universe.
“It is a story about a man who fears God. Job suffers monstrous calamity, and God never bothers to explain the reason for it.”
And thus ends the inquiry.
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“If a man does not believe ‘Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures……………’ how in God’s good name could he believe or understand ANY portion of God’s word?’”
If a man does not believe that Mohammad is Allah’s prophet, how in Allah’s good name can you believe or understand ANY portion of Allah’s word?
So, can you understand any of the Koran or not?
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I think you are quibbling with the way I said what I said.
They say Socrates was a wise man. Therefore, let me borrow upon his words.
Did Socrates think knowledge and learning useless? No. Socrates was a teacher, but he realized the futility of pride. To claim more knowledge than we have is foolish. To insist God’s plans make sense to us is silly. When God is the Creator of the universe, who do we think we are to assert such a thing?
We cannot understand the nature of God. We cannot understand His plans, but we can know that such an infinite being exists. We can also infer from Creation some the characteristics of God. And if the existence of the Bible makes no sense without God’s inspiration, then it is reasonable to assume God inspired the Bible.
What we have no reason to expect is perfect knowledge. That’s because we are imperfect.
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“To claim more knowledge than we have is foolish. ”
Quite right. I agree completely with all of your arguments about the limitations of human knowledge. And yet you claim to have access to The Truth. I think that the first part of your argument thoroughly undermines the second part of your argument.
“And if the existence of the Bible makes no sense without God’s inspiration, then it is reasonable to assume God inspired the Bible.”
Well, here I have to disagree. I don’t find it at all difficult to conclude that the Bible is a human construct. One could argue that the Koran “makes no sense without God’s inspiration”, but I doubt if you’d conclude that God inspired the Koran.
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David
If you think the Koran comparable to the Bible, then you have not studied either the Koran or the Bible. I seriously doubt you have given much thought to either. Hence, as I once did, you have concluded that the Bible is a human construct. To know otherwise, we have to read its words and consider them carefully, and we have to want to know the Truth.
We can spread the Gospel. We can each bring others as others brought us to the foot of the cross, but only God can save one us. That is part of the Truth. In God’s infinite creation, we are so small we do not have the power to master it.
Consider that Satan knows God, but Satan refuses to know the Truth. God is God, and neither Satan, I, or you can replace Him. Yet like Satan, we too can be proud. We can foolishly insist upon being masters of our fate, but we cannot replace God. Even Satan, so much more powerful than any of us, is finite. Therefore, he cannot replace an infinite God.
Yet there is an upside, one that thrills the soul. God loves us and considers us His children. That love, that incredible gift, is the story of the Bible, and that story is not one any of us would have dreamed of writing.
There are also the prophecies, and there are the intricate details that all tie perfectly together. There is the fact the Bible writing spans 1500 years and was written by 40 men, and yet the Bible still is one cohesive book. And there is Israel, a nation that should not exist. How after all that has happened to it can Israel still be? The Bible provides the answer. Israel is the nation God chose to give birth to His Son.
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CT
Very good reminder about that tiny piece of real estate called Israel.
Who is interested in that part of the world?
Everybody
Nobody
God
The devil
Saints
Sinners
The left
The right
The religious
The infidel
World leaders
Every news source
And for what its worth, Israel is the subject and key to prophecy in the good book, other than that, sure, completely irrelevant….
Yea, let God’s word be true.
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“There are also the prophecies, and there are the intricate details that all tie perfectly together. There is the fact the Bible writing spans 1500 years and was written by 40 men, and yet the Bible still is one cohesive book.”
I’m not so sure about these claims, especially with respect to the prophecies, but I’ve learned that arguing this point is fruitless.
In any event, I think that you missed my point. I don’t think that you can argue for several paragraphs that human knowledge is flawed, limited, error-prone and imperfect and then conclude that you know with apparently absolute certainty that you know that the Bible offers a perfect, inerrant Truth. The one argument contradicts the other. If you can be in error about other matters, then you can be in error with respect to your beliefs about the Bible. That’s all I’m suggesting here.
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“Israel is the subject and key to prophecy in the good book.”
CS, would you mind interpreting the prophesy in Zechariah 14 for me?
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David-
I was confirming CT observation about the relevance of Israel, in which you too admitted.
Your bait is refused.
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How about a reminder about that tiny piece of real estate called Islamic Middle East?
Who is interested in that part of the world?
Everybody
Nobody
God
The devil
Saints
Sinners
The left
The right
The religious
The infidel
World leaders
Every news source
Yea, let Allah’s word be true.
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With a name like David, its disappointing to see how infatuated or overcome you are with the Goliath of false religion.
You see David, there is the true, then there is the counterfeit. Today, the true leaves footprints of the grace of God.
Your comment here is WHY it is pointless to discuss the cherubim, and Zechariah.
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“I was confirming CT observation about the relevance of Israel, in which you too admitted.”
Yes, Israel is relevant and this is relevant to your faith. Many other parts of the world are relevant and are relevant to adherents of other faiths. Islamic Middle East is relevant. Hindu India is relevant. So, what’s the point? This demonstrates nothing.
“Your bait is refused.”
You refer to Zechariah 14? Wise move. Best not to look to closely at the “prophecy in the good book.”
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David
You are being silly. To make sense of that chapter would require considerable study. I will readily admit I have not gotten to the point I am ready to explain that chapter to another person. I have studied quite a bit of chemistry and physics, but I would still be a lost to explain advanced theories. Even if ColorStorm is prepared to explain Zechariah 14, he would have provide long explanation which you have shown no inclination to hear. If you want to understand Zechariah 14, why don’t you just read a good commentary. People like John Wesley and Matthew Henry have been writing them for generations.
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“You are being silly. To make sense of that chapter would require considerable study.”
Not silly at all. You and CS made a huge deal about prophecy. How do we know that the Bible contains The Truth? Why, just look at the prophecies!
So, I proposed that we look at prophecy. Both of you declined.
Zechariah 14 isn’t that hard to interpret. It’s really not. Unless, of course, it’s a false prophecy. In that case, it’s going to take some “advanced theories” indeed.
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‘I propose we look at prophecy?’
I propose you re- read all of CT comments to you; he has been far more gracious than I, and has made observations that today at least, are far more important than your curiosity.
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“He has been far more gracious than I.”
Well, ColorStorm, for once, I can say that we completely agree. Citizen tom has been quite gracious, and I thank him for that.
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Sorry, typo…Citizen Tom.
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Zechariah 14 is not that hard to interpret.That cracks me up.
Here is the first of three articles. http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/watchman-radio-hour/read/articles/the-meaning-of-the-attacks-on-jerusalem-in-zechariah-12-14-part-1-12016.html
Links to the other two articles are at the bottom of the first.
Did God create the universe just for us? I don’t think so. It appears there are lots of angels, for example. And the creation story does not explain where they came from.
Each part of the Bible was written by a particular God-inspired man at a particular time to a particular people. That is, the Bible was written for us, but none of it was written to us. So we have to try to understand it as the audience to whom each book was written would have understood it.
When Moses wrote Genesis, he knew nothing about the stars in the heaven. God did not tell him anything except the events leading to the creation of man. That’s all that would have made sense to Moses.
Consider David Hume. Hume is a philosopher who lived in the 1700s. In a book he wrote (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09608780210143227?journalCode=rbjh20#.VKX3myvF8Xw), he discusses whether a vacuum is possible. Hume did not know that most of the universe is empty space. We, however, know we live on a small planet surrounded by empty space, and we conjecture that with our galaxy there must be other planets like ours, perhaps populated with living beings.
Moses knew nothing about the emptiness of space or the possibility of other planets like our own. He just knew something about what God wanted him to do. God did not try to confuse him with extraneous details.
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FYI. I have a comment in moderation.
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Tkx for heads up-
I guess it goes there when there are multiple links.
Thank you Tom
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“Zechariah 14 is not that hard to interpret.That cracks me up.”
Checked out your first link. From that link…”What then is the correct interpretation? I really don’t know for certain nor does anyone.”
That’s just great. Here we have the inerrant word of God, and nobody knows what it means. Or it means whatever you’d like it mean, depending on your brand of Christianity It’s like the old MASH episode where everyone asks BJ Hunnicut what BJ stands for. “Anything you want it to,” he says. So, what’s the point? It has no value.
What makes Zechariah 14 “hard to interpret” for Christians is that it’s clearly an erroneous prophecy. You have no problem with prophecy when you think you can twist it to fit a Christian narrative (you yourself promoted the prophecies as proof of the truth of the Bible). But when it doesn’t fit the narrative, it becomes “hard to interpret.” The error on the prophecy forces various Christian interpreters to scramble and bob and weave to find a way to make it work. It’s an old cliche, but if you have to work that hard, you’re doing something wrong.
Now, if you can start with the understanding that the prophecy is wrong, it becomes quite simple. It may crack you up to hear me say this, but I think that Zechariah 14 is really not that difficult to follow. It clearly lays out what is to happen. It’s just that it’s wrong.
“When Moses wrote Genesis, he knew nothing about the stars in the heaven.”
Yes, exactly. He had no special knowledge about the natural world It’s what you’d expect if Genesis is a construct of the human mind. The writer simply has no idea of the vastness of the universe and the absurdity of thinking that the creation is all designed for us. (It also seems very unlikely to me that “Moses” wrote Genesis, but that’s another story.
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CT-
Feel free to do your thing, just wanted to say:
David: It was YOUR idea that Zechariah ‘is not hard to interpret,’ and could easily be put to bed in a moment or two. CT was quoting YOUR words.
Citizen Tom was correct that THIS is not the time nor place to engage prophecy.. We may as well study the book of Revelation or Daniel while we are here.
We were simply pointing out to you the cohesiveness of the whole of scripture, of which prophecy is central.
May I remind you again of the title of this post? ‘Can’t go into detail,’ you may want to take a look again and see why.
Again, I stand firm that scripture is not given to satisfy anybody’s curiosity. It is a closed book unless the heart is right.
If you have the time, read CT comments again, they are very very good, and address your concerns.
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“It was YOUR idea that Zechariah ‘is not hard to interpret,’ and could easily be put to bed in a moment or two. CT was quoting YOUR words.”
Yes, and he followed my words with the sentence “That cracks me up.” Did you notice this part?
I assumed from this that he thought my position (that Zechariah is not hard to interpret) to be laughable. In other words, Citizen Tom believes that Zechariah is indeed difficult to interpret. Now, if I’ve misinterpreted Citizen Tom, I’d be happy to be corrected by him.
“Citizen Tom was correct that THIS is not the time nor place to engage prophecy. We may as well study the book of Revelation or Daniel while we are here. We were simply pointing out to you the cohesiveness of the whole of scripture, of which prophecy is central.”
So, prophecy is central … but this is not the time or place to discuss it. Right, got it. Your choice.
I’m not forcing you to discuss prophecy. I was simply responding to Citizen Tom’s decision to engage in a discussion.
“It is a closed book unless the heart is right.”
Yes, I understand. You can’t believe it unless you already believe it.
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Yes David I noticed, and I’m sure it will all be made plain, now as to prophecy-
Did u read the part in my post here re. the cherubim, how the writer said after oh, a few thousand years – ‘of which we cannot speak particularly?’
I can assure you,the cherubim are far more worthy of study, but again, neither the time nor place.
In like manner, prophecy is connected to many many things, and it would neither be wise or beneficial to take that road NOW.
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“Did u read the part in my post here re. the cherubim, how the writer said after oh, a few thousand years – ‘of which we cannot speak particularly?’”
The writer of Hebrews did not say “oh, a few thousand years.” As far as I can tell, that was your insertion.
“In like manner, prophecy is connected to many many things, and it would neither be wise or beneficial to take that road NOW.”
I could be misunderstanding you, but is this your way of saying that Z 14 is a prophecy about “Christmas yet to come”, i.e., the future?
Yes, since, by definition, prophecies are always about the future, one can always claim that the prophecy will be fulfilled in the future, because the future is always unknown and yet to be. It’s certainly a good way to render the hypothesis untestable. However, Z 14 contains clear anachronisms that tell us that its expiration date has passed, and so, the prophecy is in error.
But I understand, you don’t want to talk about it. So, I’ll give John Fogerty the last word about the future.
First thing I remember, was askin’ Papa, “Why?”
For there were many things I didn’t know
And Daddy always smiled, took me by the hand
Sayin’, “Someday you’ll understand”
Well, I’m here to tell you now each and every mother’s son
You better learn it fast, you better learn it young
‘Cause ‘Someday’ never comes
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Two things here David-
That’s right, the two thousand year reference was mine. Heck, I’ll add another thousand and be just as true.
The context was the DEPTH of meaning, not possible to explain justly, where the Hebrew writer was speaking of other things.
From Eden where they first appeared, to Revelation where they are seen again, is as I say, too much to engage.
Secondly, maybe you have read: ‘the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of PROPHECY?’
I do know this, there is no mistake in Zechariah.
Btw, your ‘someday’ is today.
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“‘The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of PROPHECY?’”
I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to say here.
“I do know this, there is no mistake in Zechariah.”
I do know this, you believe that there is no mistake in Zechariah. So it goes.
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Revelation 19.10,
Was just wondering if you ever read it,
I was just alluding to the fact that your interest in prophecy involves many, many layers that Citizen Tom pointed out.
Spend time in the scriptures, unaided by the influence of fallible men, and you just may arrive at a more harmonious outcome.
.
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“Was just wondering if you ever read it.”
No, so I just read it. Still don’t get it.
Then again, that’s true for all of Revelation. Now there’s a writer who was on a serious acid trip.
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David
The Bible is a long work. If you really want to understand the Bible, then don’t pick an obscure portion of it and rail against it. When Christians admit some prophecies confuse them and then still believe in the Bible, that is not a sign there is something wrong with the Bible. That’s just a simple admission that a book inspired by God can be difficult for mere human beings to understand, and why should that be surprising?
Nevertheless, God thinks of us as His sheep. So most of the Bible is not especially difficult to understand. Albeit, it helps to have a good understanding of Bible history.
Much of the Old Testament is in the form of stories, songs and proverbs. Understanding the Gospels does not require a degree. The Books of Romans and Hebrew well explain Christian theology. The Book of James is so practical it irritated Martin Luther. I think that man wanted something more mystical. Luther probably would have had no trouble explaining Zechariah 14, but I am not Luther.
My favorite book is Ecclesiastes. When I read it the first time, I got it all backwards. After I got a good commentary, I realized my mistake. Then I wondered how I had made that mistake. Then I realized I had believed what I had wanted to believe instead of what the man was saying. That realization in and of itself made the book worth reading.
To learn requires humility. Otherwise, we think we already know it all.
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If you really want to understand the Bible, then don’t pick an obscure portion of it and rail against it.
What I want to know is simple. Is the Bible absolutely perfect and absolutely true?
It doesn’t matter if Zechariah 14 is an “obscure portion”, because it’s said that parts of the Bible are contain inerrant Truth. So, even the obscure parts are significant in that even the obscure parts must be examined to see if this claim is correct. Further, I didn’t “rail against” Zechariah 14. I just said that it was an erroneous prophecy. No railing.
“When Christians admit some prophecies confuse them and then still believe in the Bible, that is not a sign there is something wrong with the Bible.”
Again, I don’t that that it’s very difficult to see what Z 14 predicts. It lays things out in relatively straight-forwards manner with respect to what is to happen. Compared with Revelation, Z 14 is crystal clear.
An accurate prophecy should be easy to write and easy to made clear. For example, I predict that in 50 years, the principality of Monaco will invade and defeat the nation of Germany. See? Clear and easy to interpret. When this fails to occur in 2065, you will know that I’m a false prophet.
“Much of the Old Testament is in the form of stories, songs and proverbs. ”
I agree, but which parts are which? Figuring this out appears to be nearly impossible and there are endless disputes about this, and that significantly diminishes its value.
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David
When we examine a tree, if we don’t consider it in relationship to the rest of to forest, we lose something, the forest.
Have you considered you are trying to tell God how to write the Bible? Why would the Creator of the universe want our advice?
Why not try to understand the Bible? You could read something like “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth” by Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart.
Since I am engaging a couple of your fellows on ColorStorm’s latest post, you may as well join us there. See http://thenakedtruth2.wordpress.com/2014/12/30/heres-a-toast-to-you/comment-page-1/#comment-2763.
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“When we examine a tree, if we don’t consider it in relationship to the rest of to forest, we lose something, the forest.”
I understand, and I don’t necessarily disagree. However, if the claim is made that every tree in the forest is in perfect health, and you then find a single diseased tree, then that one tree is quite significant with respect to the claims being made about the entire forest.
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Final thought…
“Have you considered you are trying to tell God how to write the Bible? Why would the Creator of the universe want our advice?”
You’ve read Revelation, right? I’m not joking when I ask…wouldn’t you want to ask God for major re-write here? Seriously, this text is utterly indecipherable.
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David-
You were given a single text regarding ‘the spirit of prophecy,’ and u said you had no clue what it meant,
and it was written in black and white. You are at a disadvantage, but that does not prove a weakness in the text.
Same goes for Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, all understandable, and no, no need for a rewrite.
If a man does not believe ‘Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures……………’ how in God’s good name could he believe or understand ANY portion of God’s word?’
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David
It is we who are diseased, not Zechariah 14.
Jeremiah 5:21 or perhaps John 9:13-34 has been condense to this proverb: None so blind as those who will not see — from https://www.englishclub.com/ref/esl/Sayings/Quizzes/Will/None_so_blind_as_those_who_will_not_see_959.htm
To accept the Bible as true, we must first admit we are sinners and need God to cleanse us. No one finds that much humbling easy to accept.
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David
Revelation is not utterly indecipherable. That book is actually quite orderly. The problem with prophecy is that it does what it claims to do. It predicts the future. Since history is still being written, when we read prophecy, we have to put that prophecy in a context that still doesn’t exist. That is, BECAUSE we read prophecies out of context, we cannot easily understand them until after they have been fulfilled. Therefore, even when well-intentioned theologians try to interpret prophecy, they come up with different interpretations.
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“That book is actually quite orderly.”
I didn’t say it was disorderly. I said it was indecipherable. There’s a difference.
“That is, BECAUSE we read prophecies out of context, we cannot easily understand them until after they have been fulfilled. ”
I predict that in 50 years, the principality of Monaco will invade and defeat the nation of Germany. Is that understandable or not? Is my prophecy testable or not?
What if a prophecy is false? Then it will never be fulfilled. However, since the future always ahead of us, you can always claim that this false prophecy cannot be easily understood because it has not yet been fulfilled. I’m afraid that your explanation for our failure to understand is not very useful.
When I was a teenager, I read The Late, Great Planet Earth. Scared the hell out of me. Spent weeks hiding under the bed. Over time, I came to realize that no one knows what Revelations says or predicts (although my hunch is that the writer thought he was writing about the much-hoped-for end of the Roman Empire). Thus, it has little value.
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“If a man does not believe ‘Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures……………’ how in God’s good name could he believe or understand ANY portion of God’s word?’”
If a man does not believe that Mohammad is Allah’s prophet, how in Allah’s good name can you believe or understand ANY portion of Allah’s word?
So, can you understand any of the Koran or not?
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David-
If you believed it and understood the word of God, your question would not have to be asked.
(hint: according to the scriptures)
According to the Koran falls short at every turn.
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…or were you trying to say that you understood the Koran, and the Koran falls short?
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David
‘according to the scriptures’
‘according to the Koran’
Yes, one here falls short. I’m sorry friend, but there is no comparison.
He who created the heavens and the earth is also the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who by the way lives..
What has all-ah done lately?
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“Yes, one here falls short. I’m sorry friend, but there is no comparison.”
Ah, but you’re wrong. You see, the problem is that you don’t believe that Allah is God and that Mohammad is his prophet. Therefore, you cannot understand or believe the Koran, nor can you evaluate its Truth. Yes, the Koran is Truth, but you must start by believing this before you can see it. I can’t possibly lead you to believe or understand the Truth of Koran until you start by believing as you should. None is so blind as he who will not see.
“…the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
So, you also believe in two gods?
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That wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t a counterfeit.
I love the way you capitalized ‘Truth’ in relation to the Koran. But as was stated, there is no comparison, if you are honest with yourself.
The true God has no competitor, and He doesn’t need help keeping the planets and tides in order.
You didn’t answer the question David: what has all-ah done lately?
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“That wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t a counterfeit.”
Allah is not a counterfeit, and the Koran holds Truth. If only you believed it, then you’d understand it. If only you had eyes that could see and ears that could hear. Only a fool would deny the one true god and his name is Allah and his prophet is Mohammad. But first, you must believe. Otherwise, you will never understand the Koran or see its Truth.
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David-
You may want to visit a fresh post. Its about sowing discord.
Your sarcasm here is tiresome.
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“Your sarcasm here is tiresome.”
Tiresome? But this is exactly what you’ve said time and time and time again. Do you find it tiresome? Do you really? Welcome to my world.
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David
Since it is obvious that you do not understand what I mean by the relevance of context to prophecy, I suppose an example is in order.
Imagine for moment that Zeus actually is a real god. Further, what if the Oracle of Delphi actually had real powers to forecast the future? How do think this pronouncement would have gone over two thousand years ago?
But Zeus was a not a god, and the Oracle of Delphi ceased to make pronouncements long ago. The Bible, however, continues to be revered as the Word of God.
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“In a time to come the most powerful nation the world has known…”
Ah, now see? This is what I’m talking about when I say that prophecies can be clear and relatively easy to interpret. Note use of specific details and the description of things that people can understand, even two thousand years ago. The notion of flying through the skies might raise more than a few skeptical eyebrows in the first century, but the words and concepts are easy to understand. There’s no mystery about what is being predicted. No doubt this prophecy would have been met with scoffing, but not with confusion.
“But Zeus was a not a god, and the Oracle of Delphi ceased to make pronouncements long ago. The Bible, however, continues to be revered as the Word of God.”
I’m not sure that I understand the point that you’re trying to make here.
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David
It is beyond my capacity to make you understand. When you ask what appears to be a sincere question, I can try to answer — if I know the answer. However, as ColorStorm observed, “Your sarcasm here is tiresome.”
Think the hundreds of years of history the proceeded the presidency of Barack Obama. Did huge cannons represent the power to destroy a city. Would a barrage of cannon fire have constituted a single blow in the destruction of a city? Was the Spanish Empire the one spoken of in the prophecy?
Instead of constantly bellyaching, think! Use your own imagination.
Part of the reason for prophecy is to keep us on our toes, to keep us looking ahead in anticipation of our savior’s Second Coming. If the prophecy were more exact, we would not do that.
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“It is beyond my capacity to make you understand. When you ask what appears to be a sincere question, I can try to answer — if I know the answer. However, as ColorStorm observed, “Your sarcasm here is tiresome.”
I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic here at all. I was quite sincere in my response, even though I may disagree with you or see things differently. Sometimes a lack of agreement is taken as a lack of understanding. Sorry that you took my response as you did.
I think the problem here is that prophecies lie along a spectrum. Some are relatively clear, specific in their detail and refer to things that we can understand (see Zechariah14). Other prophecies are jam-packed with strange symbols and angels trumpets and mythological seven-headed beasts; these are indecipherable.
In the case of the Z 14-type prophecies, I think that we can draw conclusions about whether these could happen and/or if they’ve passed their expiration dates. In the case of Revelation, drawing conclusions may be impossible for anyone, and I think that significantly lowers its value.
“Did huge cannons represent the power to destroy a city?”
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. I wasn’t claiming that ancient people would have understood the means by which a city could be destroyed in a single blow. What I’m saying is that the series of events laid out in your hypothetical prophecy are simple, straight-forward and easy to understand. There’s nothing symbolic or confusing here. There will be one blow, and it will destroy one city. Very simple. I think that’s easy to understand WHAT is going to happen (according to the prophecy), even if an ancient Roman would not have known HOW this could happen. I could understand if folks argued about the means , so here, perhaps, we are in agreement. However, I don’t see why they would argue about what is to happen, regardless of “context”. In short, the “what” is clear, the “how” is not.
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“Part of the reason for prophecy is to keep us on our toes, to keep us looking ahead in anticipation of our savior’s Second Coming. If the prophecy were more exact, we would not do that.”
Um, I’m genuinely NOT being sarcastic when I say that I’m not sure that this says good things about God. It makes God sound like a bit of a trickster god.
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David, just a comment. About this time evenings I get free enough to chime in some. After having watched all day. Ok..God according to you does not exist; then isn’t characterizing His behavior sort of well…nonsensical? You worry a lot about the character flaws of a God you say is not there.
Ok..next. If God is real(and He is VERY real)..then He is God…you aren’t…not a good business to be sitting in judgment of the Judge..just sayin.
Maybe instead of arguing about all these details you might re read my comment from last night. God’s grace extends to us all David..no matter what we have done…or in your case..the things you have said.
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David
Trickster? I don’t think so, but He does seem to have a sense of humor.
Think about this verse.
God is trying to get those who love Him ready to spend eternity with Him. Can you imagine spending eternity with someone you don’t like, someone who refuses to improve? Can you imagine living with an adult with the morals of a two-year child? Think of living with someone who is strong, intelligent, devious and cunning and utterly without scruples. Do you think God would let anyone like that into heaven?
Therefore, the Bible tells us just a little bit about how God will separate the sheep from the goats. The Bible also tells us just a little bit about how we prepare ourselves for heaven, but how Romans 8:28 works is more than we can understand.
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A final thought about prophecies.
For all this talk about context and difficulties in interpreting prophecies, I notice that Christians have NO trouble at all interpreting prophecies IF they think that there’s something the cherry-picked OT that proves that the Messiah, the Son of God, was born in Palestine about two thousands years ago. THEN, everything is suddenly crystal clear!
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“Can you imagine living with an adult with the morals of a two-year child? Think of living with someone who is strong, intelligent, devious and cunning and utterly without scruples. Do you think God would let anyone like that into heaven?”
I hope that you’re not talking about me!
Can you imagine torturing a human being for all eternity? Can you imagine that?
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David…what is this torture business? God is not dragging anybody kicking and screaming into any torture..Heard when Jesus said, “not my will but thine be done?”….well God will say that to us someday after a lifetime or rejecting Him…he will say to us..to you….ok..fine and dandy. “Not my will but THINE be done.”
It’s not a deficiency on God’s personality if you choose to reject him. Really? Once again, He is God….and well..you are not. The problem is us..not God. He made all of this, therefore we play by His rules. And his rules are simply..accept His Son..repent and believe. It’s actually far easier than all the work you are doing to disprove and discredit Him, that’s for sure.
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“Maybe instead of arguing about all these details you might re read my comment from last night.”
Hey Wally, speaking of yesterday, I’m still waiting for an answer to the question I asked over at your blog.
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David. I told you…Im not playing 20 questions for the Christian. You constantly demand answers…but you won’t answer yourself. So..not doin that. Do you remember what I asked you?
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David
There are two reasons why the prophecies related to Jesus Christ are crystal clear.
1. We now have the historical context. The event which was predicted has occurred as foretold.
2. The New Testament very often cites the Old Testament. That includes explanations of how Jesus fulfilled the prophecies in the Old Testament.
Hell is self-inflicted torture. Consider Satan. He does not want to be with God; he wants to be God. When Satan chose to be separate from God, He created his own Hell.
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David,
Seriously consider this answer by CT. It is spot on in every regard.
And don’t worry about the lady in Timbuktu, the Judge of all the earth WILL do right.
What about you?
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“You worry a lot about the character flaws of a God you say is not there.”
But maybe, if I can persuade you to give a little thought to these flaws, you’ll see that your particular version of God is not accurate.
“Ok..next. If God is real(and He is VERY real)..then He is God…you aren’t…not a good business to be sitting in judgment of the Judge..just sayin.”
For the thousandth time, I’m not judging God. I’m judging your particular version of God.
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“The event which was predicted has occurred as foretold.”
Has the event occurred? The vast majority of Jews living in the time of Jesus came to a different conclusion. Maybe that’s because Jesus didn’t quite fit the bill.
“The New Testament very often cites the Old Testament.”
Is it possible that the NT writers maybe, kinda did a little post hoc back-filling when telling the story of Jesus? Is it possible?
“Hell is self-inflicted torture.”
Oh. So God isn’t doing the torturing? God didn’t create Hell? God didn’t set the rules that determines who is eternally tortured? God didn’t create humans such that every human would inevitably sin? God told every single human being on Earth how to avoid Hell if this was their choice?
Eternal torture. No chance of parole. Loving God. One of these things is not like the other, and yes, I’ve heard all of the rationalizations for this.
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Here is a distinction without a difference. If you anyone close to me, you will be judging the “version” of the person I know.
I only know the God of the Bible. I don’t know of any other God. So when you criticize the Bible and what it says about God (and that you are), you are criticizing my particular version of God.
What I don’t understand — if you don’t believe in Jesus — is why you feel the need to claim otherwise.
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“And don’t worry about the lady in Timbuktu, the Judge of all the earth WILL do right.”
The lady in Timbuktu shows the Bible contradicts itself.
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“So when you criticize the Bible and what it says about God (and that you are), you are criticizing my particular version of God.”
Yes, I’m aware of that. This is why you all react so strongly to me.
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David…what is this torture business?
Running out of time to reply tonight, but in short…
Not consistent with omnibenevolence, disproportionate response to human actions, makes God very small, God created the flawed humans, so why blame the creation, etc.
“Im not playing 20 questions for the Christian. You constantly demand answers…but you won’t answer yourself. So..not doin that. Do you remember what I asked you?”
Yes, I understand this. And I asked you to clarify your question, and you stomped off in a huff. So, I never got the chance to address your question.
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My question was David…if you got an answer to your concern about the Mayans..would it change your mind?
Also…what version of God do you believe in? I thought you were an atheist…um check the dictionary bro..yall don’t believe in God.
OK..your answer which you refused to read. Everybody in Jericho heard about the Israelites..and their God. Only Rahab and her family came out alive. Why was that? They believed. Why do you think the spies went to her house in the first place? Well, God knew she was earnestly seeking.
It’s like the missionary to Mongolia I wrote about. Seriously that guy just one day said God was calling him to Mongolia. Why? Somebody over there was earnestly seeking…God sent a preacher.
God responds to our response to His light with more light. We all know, by the things that are created..and are without excuse…respond to it David…just give it up. What God does with all those other people is not your problem..you aren’t accountable for their actions..only your own.
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David
Wally Fry pointed out you have lots of questions. It appears you cannot be satisfied with the answers provided by the Bible. Shrug. Nothing I can do about that. Since you have yet to provide any answers, I have little idea what you believe. It just seems to me you want a god of your own creation. Nothing new about that. We call that sort of god an idol.
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My question was David…if you got an answer to your concern about the Mayans..would it change your mind?
Ah, clarification! Don’t mean to be difficult, but what do you mean by “change your mind?” Do you mean change your mind completely or just change your mind about this one issue? Based on my guess about what “change your mind” means, I would say that it would clear up this one issue, but there are other issues still out there. If that’s not good enough to get an answer from you with respect to my question, so it goes. I’ve given you an honest answer to your question, assuming that I correctly understand your question.
“Also…what version of God do you believe in? I thought you were an atheist…um check the dictionary bro..yall don’t believe in God.”
To me, “God” is an utter mystery. Could some sort of entity exist which might be assigned the name “God?” Sure, why not? After all, I don’t know where the universe came from. Beyond that, who knows? Seems arrogant to pretend to know more.
OK..your answer which you refused to read. Everybody in Jericho heard about the Israelites..and their God. Only Rahab and her family came out alive. Why was that? They believed. Why do you think the spies went to her house in the first place? Well, God knew she was earnestly seeking.
Ok, that’s what I thought you were saying. But as I said, it didn’t address my question about millions of individuals over thousands of years for whom the gospels were total and utterly unavailable. So, when you kept telling me to read it again, that the answer was there if I read it again, I was thoroughly confused.
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What God does with all those other people is not your problem.”
Yes, I understand. Stop thinking.
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David…and you wonder why I left in a “huff” as you put it. My time is extremely limited…I don’t have time for your endless diversions. One question leads to another without end..the never ending story.
It appears you are not earnestly seeking answers. Because you have been given truth over and over again. It’s a truth you don’t like..but it’s truth. Take it or leave it my friend. I am shaking the dust off of my feet for now. God Bless you my friend.
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David
Have you considered praying and asking God give you some answers?
All we can do is present the Gospel and ask you to study the Bible. Jesus is the one who saves. You can argue with that, call us idiots, but you are not going to get anything out of it. Just a waste of time.
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“One question leads to another without end..the never ending story.
Maybe that’s because the answers aren’t there.
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“You can argue with that, call us idiots…”
For the record, I don’t believe that I called anyone an idiot. Not my style.
“Have you considered praying and asking God give you some answers?”
Oh, yes, I’ve prayed. I’ve screamed in the night for help.
You know what I heard? Nothing. Not one thing. No one’s home. Sorry, but that’s what I heard. Nothing.
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You have three people telling you to read the Bible, study it carefully, and you did not hear anything?
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“You have three people telling you to read the Bible, study it carefully, and you did not hear anything?”
Citizen Tom, while I appreciate your concerns for me, I think that you could have saved yourself the trouble of copying out the man on the roof in a flood story. I’ve heard it before. More than once. I am not a young man.
I’m not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you’re saying that God sent the three of you to get me off the roof by telling me to read the Bible? Well, I’m not sure how much of my interactions with Wally and CS you’ve followed, but reading the Bible is a big part of how I arrived at my present position. I’m really not being sarcastic here when I say that the fastest route to unbelief with respect to Yahweh is via reading the Bible.
I’ve read and studied the Bible. I understand what you’ve said about the Bible, but you know the cliched definition of insanity, right?
I’m sorry, but God’s gone off to create another galaxy, and She’s not taking any calls.
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…Oh, and to be sure I answered your question directly…no, I did not hear anything.
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David
Do I know for certain how God has answered your prayer? No. I just know you have an answer.
So what are the real questions here? Why does the Bible prove to you that Christianity is not true? Are you the first to react that way? How did others get pass that point?
The Bible answers these questions. Because it is not what any of us would have done, what the Bible says about God’s plan for our redemption seems utterly ridiculous. The Apostle Paul said as much.
When I was a young man, I read the “Age of Reason” by Thomas Paine. That was enough to keep me from considering the Bible for several decades. To me the wisdom of God seem foolish.
Life brought me back. Stuck in traffic, bored, looking for a reason for life, I listened to the bible on CD, and I repented.
Paul saw the martyrdom of Stephen. He saw the Christians he persecuted. Eventually, he saw his savior, and he repented.
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Tom,
Like you, I can appreciated men of principle, as Christianity obviously does not have a monopoly on the intellect of humanity.
Thoreau comes to mind. Truly he wrote of ‘the spirit of man,’ which I could fully enjoy, while at the same time, I would part company as far as the spiritual misgivings.
There are men of extreme mental prowess who sadly, give no creedence to the God who gave them such gifts.
At the end of the day, the scriptures point to He who truly satisfies, as your text above proves what and Who is truly wise..
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“Why does the Bible prove to you that Christianity is not true? Are you the first to react that way? How did others get pass that point?”
Let’s see, the answers would be…
1) This should be clear by now from my comments.
2) No.
3) Don’t know. I’m sure that it varies from one individual to the next.
“What the Bible says about God’s plan for our redemption seems utterly ridiculous.”
Well, then, maybe it is. Sometimes first impressions are the most accurate. No, I’m not trying to be sarcastic. Again, if you have to work too hard, then maybe you’re doing something wrong.
“1 Corinthians 1:18-25 New King James Version (NKJV)”
Yes, I’m familiar with this passage. Most cult leaders preach a variation on this theme. It’s SOP. They will say something along the lines of…
“Those outside the cult will say that we are foolish and our ideas are foolish, but really, they are the fools and we have all the answers. We are the wise, we have the source of wisdom and they do not, and ultimately, bad things will happen to them (and to you, too, if you leave the cult).”
It’s a good way to tamp down questioning.
“When I was a young man, I read the “Age of Reason” by Thomas Paine. That was enough to keep me from considering the Bible for several decades. To me the wisdom of God seem foolish.”
I’ve never read much Paine, but I do find it curious that you’d want to take your blog name from someone who led you so far astray for so long. Just seems odd.
“Life brought me back. Stuck in traffic, bored, looking for a reason for life, I listened to the bible on CD, and I repented.”
I glad that you have something that works for you (again, no sarcasm intended here). It just doesn’t work for me. One size does not always fit all.
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David
What the Apostle Paul said was never intended to tamp down questioning. The point is that our wisdom does not compare with that of God. It doesn’t matter to God whether we think God is doing something the way we think it should be done. He doesn’t need our advice. What matters is whether God’s plan for our redemption actually is God’s plan for our redemption.
Whether what the Bible says is true is debatable. It is pointless to practice a faith we don’t think is true, but once we accept the fact the Bible is true then our problem is trying to understand God’s point of view. Trying to convince our Creator He wrong is just plain dumb.
Anyway, I detect a certain smugness. Since I once smugly regarded the Bible as a fairy tale, that’s not something I can hold against you. Except for setting the best example I can, I just can’t do much about somebody else’s smug refutation of Christianity.
Your last statement is nonsense.
If the Bible is true, then the Bible is for everyone. If the Koran is true, Muslims will not give you a choice. They will give you a deal you cannot refuse. If Buddhism is true, then you better get started on giving up all desires. If ….
You say you don’t believe in idols, but to pick your own god, you have to be a pagan. And yet isn’t that what you want?
Instead of trying to put God in a mold and conform Him to your desires, why don’t you start with the Gospel of John? Why did Jesus love sinners enough to die for us? Why isn’t that wonderful enough for you?
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“What the Apostle Paul said was never intended to tamp down questioning. The point is that our wisdom does not compare with that of God.”
Right, exactly. So, when you get to a question with no apparent answer, you say “our wisdom does not compare with that of God.” So what is the result of that statement? The result is that it ends the questioning.
“If the Bible is true, then the Bible is for everyone.”
And if it’s false, it can still work for many. This is what I was trying to say. The Koran is false, but it clearly works for many. Not for me, but for many others. So, what I said isn’t nonsense, but instead, it’s observable reality. False things can work for people, too.
I’m not sure what else to say without being redundant.
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No. It doesn’t. Have you noticed how many different Christian sects we have?
The first issue is whether one believes in the authority of the Bible. If we believe the Bible, then we have to have a logical approach of interpretation. Logic dictates that we must debate our interpretations. Just because someone says our wisdom does not compare with God’s does not mean we are not suppose to try to understand what God has given us to understand.
When you say “and if it’s false, it can still work for many,” that’s a blatant self contradiction. I can believe that eating sugar pills will cure AIDs, hepatitis and the common cold. So what? Belief does not make sugar pills work, but faith in the truth does make difference. If I have a pill that works, and I have the faith to take it the way I am suppose to take it, that pill will improve my health.
In the case of the sugar pills, we want a cure. If we could get a cure from a sugar pill, then the sugar pill would “work.” What does “work” mean in the context you supplied. You did not say. Let me suggest an answer. The main reason to become a Christian or a Muslim is to save your soul, but both faiths claim the other is wrong. Therefore, logic dictates they both cannot “work.”
Does that mean one has to be Christian in order to go to heaven? The Bible suggests otherwise, but exactly how God judges us no one really knows. I know the verses they quote, but I think some pastors go out on a limb. When a Christian says those who know of the message of the Bible and still refuse Christ’s offer of salvation will go to hell, he risks standing in the place of God. Because only God is God, we should not do that. We can only say what the Bible says, and the Bible says we must put our faith in our Creator. We must love our neighbor because we love our Creator with all our heart, mind, soul and strength.
When Jesus said He is the Way, he spoke as a man and as God. As a man, He provided an example. That example is known only to Christians, but I expect to see many who never knew of Jesus in heaven. That is because as God Jesus is known to all who choose to know Him.
And how do we know of God? We know the work of His Creation. God is the greatest of craftsmans. His creations are marvelous in beauty and detail, carefully and lovingly made. We know His promptings in our heart. We know when we act in love we do right; we know we do wrong when we act in hatred. Thus, I believe that any man who loves his Creator and his neighbor knows the Way and walks with God.
If we don’t need the Bible to be saved, then why the Bible? I think that has to do with the sacrifice Jesus Christ made on the cross. Even though many may die without ever knowing about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, when they arrive in heaven they will learn of it. The Bible explains what happens and why it was necessary.
I also think the Bible is a gift given to people who need it. In our era, we too easily forget that only God is God. Time and again we presume authority and privileges for ourselves that belong only to God. The Bible reminds those who study it that only God is God. It shows us or sinful nature, and it show how much God hates sin. The Bible also shows us the dreadful sacrifice Jesus made to pay off our debt of sin.
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When you say “and if it’s false, it can still work for many,” that’s a blatant self contradiction. I can believe that eating sugar pills will cure AIDs, hepatitis and the common cold.”
My fault, I should have been clearer here. My statement would be a contradiction if we were talking about infectious disease, but that’s not what I had in mind. I’m talking about somewhat squishy mental states, such as “peace of mind.”
You theological views appear to be different from the views of Wally and ColorStorm. Since this is not my faith, I’m wondering they would care to comment here.
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David
Just an observation. Islam does not provide “peace of mind.” Salvation in Islam is based upon works, not faith in an All-powerful and Holy God. When a Christian is born again, he knows he is saved. There is nothing comparable in any other religion.
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“The main reason to become a Christian or a Muslim is to save your soul, but both faiths claim the other is wrong. Therefore, logic dictates they both cannot “work.””
Just to clarify, I mean “works” why the individual is alive. After death? Who knows?
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David-
You said:
—————The main reason to become a Christian or a Muslim is to save your soul, but both faiths claim the other is wrong—————–
I am happy to inform you this is extremely myopic.
A young boy was asked after a gospel message WHY he wanted to become a christian. His answer should humble the scholar as well as you and I. He said:
‘Sir, I do not want to live a life of sin.’ Out of the mouth of babes.
Btw, you may want want to cite How CT and others are different in any real way that would weaken our witness to you.
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Just an observation. Islam does not provide “peace of mind.”
I think that there are Muslims (and Buddhists, Hindus, etc., etc.) who would disagree.
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David
Please explain: “I think that there are Muslims (and Buddhists, Hindus, etc., etc.) who would disagree.”
Why would they disagree?
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“I am happy to inform you this is extremely myopic.”
I believe that Citizen Tom originally made the statement you are referring to here, so….Citizen Tom is extremely myopic?
‘Sir, I do not want to live a life of sin.’ Out of the mouth of babes.”
Um, but the kid IS going to live a life of sin. Everyone lives a life of sin. So, maybe the kid’s just doesn’t understand things very well. Out of the mouths of babes come baby words.
“Btw, you may want want to cite How CT and others are different in any real way that would weaken our witness to you.”
Well, since I don’t know exactly how you differ, it would be difficult for me to do as you request at this time. It looks like there could be some differences, and I think that it would make for an interesting discussion. If, in the course of the discussion, there was something worth citing, I would let you know at that time.
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Why would they disagree?”
I believe that there are many adherents of many other faiths and religious practices who would tell you that they find fulfillment, peace of mind, a meaning to life, etc., in their faiths and practices.
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I suspect we have a failure to communicate what is meant by myopic. As a practical matter, why would a young boy say: ‘Sir, I do not want to live a life of sin’? He probably wants to save his soul, which we do when we love our Maker and our neighbor.
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CT-
David
It is tricky following multiple comments. The ‘myopic’ context was to set apart christianity from all other ‘faiths.’
If it is not solely salvation by grace through faith, then it is ‘something else,’ which is what ALL other religions of the world have in common. The ‘something else’ does not promote the fruit of the spirit as a benefit to salvation, stemming from the ‘free gift.’.
The young boy after hearing of the purpose and eternal value of the death of the son of God, saw HIS sins being dealt with, and simply wanted to go on record with his desire to ‘sin no more.’ Was this possible? No, but it showed a tender heart.
The main point was, of all the things he could have said as to ‘why’ he wanted to become a believer, he didn’t mention death, heaven, hell, ‘getting things,’ he simply mentioned the more excellent way.
No, I wasn’t chastising CT, God forbid.
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That is in THIS LIFE. Eternity happens after we die. What happens after we die is the focus of Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and so forth. If a faith does not help us to make peace with the prospect of death, seeing those we love depart, it does not bring us peace.
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“If a faith does not help us to make peace with the prospect of death, seeing those we love depart, it does not bring us peace.”
I believe that in a previous comment, you set number of adherents as a measure of success. Collectively, these faiths and practices have billions of adherents. Well, that seems an unlikely outcome and/or unlikely degree of success if these faiths and practices were not providing something with respect to fulfillment, meaning of life, peace of mind, making peace with the prospect of death, etc. Maybe you should have more conversions with those of other faiths.
Now, you do make a good point about the need to make peace with the prospect of death. In fact, this is so important, humans just might be tempted to create answers that bring us peace.
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David
The number of adherents merely suggests that a faith satisfies some need, and we only have time to consider the most popular.
If that is the case, then why do I need to say anymore? As soon as you finally come face-to-face with the prospect of death, you will convert.
Anyway, I have a busy week ahead. I enjoyed the repartee, but the thread has gotten to long and too complex.
It is time to give our debate a break. The real argument is within, and that never truly stops. We each have our own choice. Our Lord may guide us, but He still lets each of us make our own choice.
So I now have to put my focus on other things. May our Lord bless you in your quest as a seeker.
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“No, I wasn’t chastising CT, God forbid.”
I understand. You were just saying that CT’s statement was “extremely myopic.” As I said, I think that there may be some interesting differences in your respective beliefs.
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Actually, I had simply thought you had said it; a simple miss on my part.
Its all good, and the point was made, as far as I can tell though David, yes there is a difference between CT and I;
He seems to have a gift for patience. Would to God I was thus equipped.
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“I enjoyed the repartee, but the thread has gotten to long and too complex. It is time to give our debate a break.”
I would agree on all points. Thanks for chatting.
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Did you notice the part where i mentioned our differences was a commendation to CT?
If you are looking for breakage in the ranks, forget it.
Some things are just plain simple David and are hardly a matter for extended discussion.
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If you are looking for breakage in the ranks, forget it.
You misunderstand. My point here is not that there’s a “break in the ranks.”
My point is that I’m quite doubtful that you would have responded to the comment in question with the words “I am happy to inform you this is extremely myopic” IF you’d realized that this statement was Citizen Tom’s. When you thought that I said the statement in question, you jumped on what you perceived as an error on my part with flags flying. But why EXTREMELY myopic? EXTREMELY? Would you really have responded to Citizen Tom with these words? No. When you realized that Citizen Tom said it, then you backpedaled with the classic “oh, but on you it looks good.” Nice job, Rodney.
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…By the way, why all the concern that I might find a “break in the ranks?” That there are numerous breaks in the ranks of Christianity is blindingly obvious. Do you really think that they are not there or that they are not obvious? So, why worry about this?
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You say it well that they were driven much like cattle. A reason I believe we all still being driven, much like a herd, to our own demise by the evils of this world.
Thank God for His grace and love that saves us all from our own stupidity.
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Sanctified cattle? Maybe, but I’d still rather be a sheep.
Don’t want no drover! Shepherd yes 😉
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You got me puzzled David-
You say there is ‘no’ God
which means no Eden, no Adam, no sin, no cherubim, hence no flaming sword, so in which case any answer I give will be the next subject for mockery.
Think I’ll pass, but note the title of the post: ‘Can’t go into detail.’
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You say that there is a god who set a flaming sword to guard the entrance to Eden. So, how long was the flaming sword supposed to guard the entrance to Eden?
I think that you’re passing here because you lack an answer. Saying “until you come to believe that the scriptures are the word of God, no answer will satisfy” is just a dodge. You have Truth. Why should you worry about mockery?
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Is there any truth u have NOT mocked?
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“Is there any truth u have NOT mocked?”
It’s not a question of mocking the Truth. It’s a question of whether or not the Truth is really true. If the Truth is true, then why are you so concerned about “mocking?” Maybe, at last, you understand that I’m not questioning God, I’m questioning YOU, because you are showing signs that you take this personally.
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Please tell me David why you would want any of my gold, when you merely think it is tin foil?
I have told u the truth about the flood, you mock,
I have told you about the rainbow, you mock,
I have told u the truth at every turn,
now you want the ‘truth,’ on a topic that is far above your pay grade?
Perhaps you should read the post again, as there are plenty clues.
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David
I have a question, and it’s a very legitimate one that no one yet has answered for me. It is related to what ColorStorm said earlier. If your initial premise is that God does not exist, then why do the answers to any other questions matter at all? The sword guarding the Tree of Life is a perfect example. Colorstorm said it well. No God, no Eden, no swords guarding anything. Actually, under that premise, the question is not even valid. Since you don’t believe God exists, then the question has no point. It’s like Ark’s constant badgering about original sin. If the subject does not exist, then what’s the point of asking?
There appears to be only one point, and that is to seize any answer that is given and subject it to mockery and even disprove the answer. That is nonsensical in itself. Really? Arguing to disprove the details concerning a subject that, in your mind, does not exist? Huh? That confuses this Bronze Age Cave dweller.
If you want honest answers to the question of life, ColorStorm speaks truth to you right from the Word of God. You may not believe that Word, and I’m sure you don’t like it. None of us like it…that’s why we rebelled in the first place in that garden you don’t believe in. And that is why we need it now. Our rebellion separates us from the perfect God who made all of this. He is Holy and can’t even turn His eyes on our offenses against Him…at least not in our natural state. But His love for us is so vast that He made a solution for our problem. Do you know He did this knowing before we did it what we would do?..Yes..that’s love.
OK…sin..all of us. You, ColorStorm, me(especially me I might add)..all guilty. By nature and by choice. Separated potentially eternally from God. Because we each have to pay the penalty for our own sin. What is that? Well..the wages of sin is death…Ahh…but here is the deal. Jesus Christ? God’s own Son..but that definition is complicated. Easy to get that God Himself came to earth as a man. Fully God…fully man. Fully man because man sinned and man had to pay. Fully God because only and infinite God could pay the infinite price for all mankind who had lived, is living, and will live into the future.
He died on the cross…for all of us. The price has been paid, but it is a gift offered to us. Like any gift, before it is ours..we have to accept it. But it is offered to anybody David, no one is turned away if they are willing to accept it. What does it take. Well agree with God..your sin is wrong and an offense to HIm. Understand that you owe for that, but Jesus paid it. Believe He paid it…accept His position as Savior and Lord…it’s not hard. So easy a 4 yr old can do it. So you you David…won’t you actually think about this instead of just looking for the loopholes?
ColorStorm..sorry to hijack your blog…but I just couldn’t sit and watch and this was just bubbling from my mind…Have a blessed day, Brother.
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As I said, sometimes the comments are better than the post,
Well done
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Sorry..So can you David..not so you you. Apologies.
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“If your initial premise is that God does not exist, then why do the answers to any other questions matter at all? …. Arguing to disprove the details concerning a subject that, in your mind, does not exist?”
A hypothesis is present. Doesn’t matter if you believe it or if I believe it or if all believe it or if no one believes it. What matters is the testing of the hypothesis. Hence, my questions.
You call this mocking, because you take it personally and respond from emotion. It’s not mocking; it’s just testing. If you have Truth, the testing shouldn’t bother you.
“Fully God…fully man.”
So…simultaneous perfect and imperfect? Simultaneously sinful by nature and sinless by nature: This is a logical contradiction, And don’t get me started on the Trinity.
“Yes..that’s love.”
There is no love in eternal torture. You cannot reconcile omnibenevolence with eternal torture. More logical contradictions. Anyone with his eyes open can see this.
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A few typos in the last comment.
Should read…
A hypothesis is presented.
So…simultaneously perfect and imperfect? Simultaneously sinful by nature and sinless by nature? This is a logical contradiction. And don’t get me started on the Trinity.
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Anyone with their eyes open can see this…actually..that is backwards. Any one with their eyes tightly shut can prevent themselves from seeing it.
David. I just presented the truth as God sees it. Take it or leave it my friend. But I won’t be wasting my time having any theological arguments with you. And contrary to what you say, it’s not because I don’t have answers. God had given me the answers I need, to pass along to those willing to hear.
Matthew 10:14 is my farewell to you David. “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.”
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