(An intro to the First post in a series of five)
Since the interdweebs are a poor place to applaud ones laurel’s, and since the charge was leveled from a religious persuasion that there are defects of understanding around here, I figured it best to re-post that which speaks directly to such things. Surely you will take note that I am discussing a topic that is sacred to some, and a golden calf to many.
As you may have noticed, I took my good ole time re-posting, lest I be accused of being impulsive. If you have ‘followed’ me for any amount of time, you know I take scripture quite seriously, and at all cost, state every time that God’s words are forever settled in heaven. He is absolutely consistent from Genesis to Revelation. His word is flawless, incriminating, lovely, full of grace and truth, and is ever pertinent to whosoever will.
Since first writing these essays, many new readers have come along, and I am thankful, and appreciate every one. There is no malice in discussing these things, there is no desire to embarrass, but there is a yen to show fidelity to the text. Some will enjoy this. Some will not care. Some will mock. Others will despise it. But ask yourself: ‘Why?’
May I offer a suggestion to guard yourself with prayer before you read this? What believer could argue to ask God to keep him through the storms and trials of life? But a trial here? Yes and no. There is no possible sentence of condemnation, but there is plenty of evidence for one to adjudicate.
Read them all. Note the connections between them. Judge righteously. You decide if I am true to God’s word. You decide if I am non-compromising to truth. You decide if I have extolled Mary, or given her due place in history. You decide if she has been degraded in any way. You decide if the spirit in which I carry my points is lousy or flattering. You decide if what I assert is rubbish.
But be careful. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the honour of kings is to search it out. Unfortunately, many folks stop searching, but if you can, read all five while you cogitate and digest the big picture, and ask yourself if what you believe is in line with what scripture presents. Enjoy, with a shout out to Silenceofmind.
Is Mary worthy of worship? (pt 1)
Worship is generally an act of devotion directed towards a deity. Worship is specifically prostration before God. In the context of our question: Is Mary queen of heaven, and worthy of worship, you need only to decide if scripture is sufficient for your guide.
You may wonder, and please do, why pray tell is there a dove at the outset of this topic. Do consider who the dove alit on. Why? We need never fear truth, and we certainly do not want to diminish Mary’s favor, while at the same time, we should not want to be guilty of lavish or misdirected praise.
There are two schools which have done damage to her character: One which has ignored her rightful place in the plan of God, and the other which has elevated her to Godhood. I wish to do neither, but simply present her as God desires.
Some dance around this seemingly fine-print, but if we are to get to the truth of the matter, here and now I ask you: Does she receive homage, is this homage justifiable, and if she were aware of this worship, what would she do with it?
Lest I be accused of blasphemy, let’s consider what has traditionally been laid at Mary’s feet:
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Mary takes petitions to God.
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Mary instructed the apostles.
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Mary was sinless.
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Mary was assumed into heaven.
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Mary wears the twelve stars.
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Mary is/was the mother of God.
If we are to gain insight and ‘instruction in righteousness’ as the good book suggests, then our appeal must be to this very book, and this source alone, for we are exhorted that in it, contains ALL that pertains to life and godliness. What else is there that is more noble?
Mary was no doubt the right woman for the time; her Jewish heritage and sound upbringing in the faith were certainly known to God, yet, she had her lot in life with all mankind as a child of Adam, in which the Lord as well as Paul said: ‘there are none good, no not any.’
This ‘goodness’ was not a moral good, for many are that, even an atheist can be good in this respect, but the word ‘good’ as used in doctrine, is whether or not a man or woman is sinless, and of course the answer is no, only God is good.
Jael in the book of Judges was a woman who drove a spike through the temple of a man killing him, and listen to the recording of her worth: ‘Blessed be Jael ABOVE ALL WOMEN.’ Fast forward to the prayer granted toward Mary: ‘Blessed art thou AMONG WOMEN, and blessed be the fruit of thy womb Jesus.’
Please address the honesty of your heart if you have never heard this, and consider the ramifications. A woman killed a man, and was given the highest of accolades by God; another woman utters the Magnificat, and we are simply told she is blessed among women, and this was an opinion confirmed by the high church.
I would not disagree that Mary was blessed among women, and I would also not disagree that ‘all generations would call her blessed.’ Yet, being a blessed person, and a person worthy of homage are two separate things.
Mary sang praise and said: ‘thy handmaiden awaits thy instructions,’ (I use liberty here) and she also said, and note carefully: ‘My soul doth rejoice in God my Saviour.’ The angel told Mary that her son would be great, and that the Lord God would give unto him the throne of his father David.’
Great? Indeed. Still today this greatness is hidden. David’s throne? Currently unoccupied, but it will be, and Mary’s promise will be fulfilled. She awaits the culmination of God’s will as do all believers. She cannot add nor take away God’s timetable.
Did you notice what many do not, that she admitted her need for a Saviour. Sounds like a wise and spiritual woman.
(Please continue to post 2)
https://thelionsden98.wordpress.com/2014/02/21/is-mary-worthy-of-worship-part-2/
https://thelionsden98.wordpress.com/2014/02/28/didnt-the-apostles-worship-mary-part-3/
https://thelionsden98.wordpress.com/2014/03/06/god-blessed-mary-part-4/
https://thelionsden98.wordpress.com/2014/03/09/the-lord-of-all-the-earth-and-mary-pt-5/
The Lions Den 
Well done my friend. It seems you have taken a difficult subject and dealt with it fairly and accurately, and yet without any of the vitriol things like this are sometimes presented with.
Jesus paid it all. All of it. Period. He needs to help from any man, any of our works, any saint, or any other mediator or co-anything.
To say anything is needed beside him dead, buried, and resurrected insults that sacrifice in the most awful ways, and is simply us thumbing our noses in God’s face and telling Him he just didn’t quite get it right….let us help you out a bit.
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I think it was fair Wally. It’s not a ‘us against them’ kinda thing, but a ‘what does scripture assert?’
Heck, I have more disdain for pew jumping snake handlers. 😉
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Well let me add to the controversy, in response to your statement, “what does scripture assert.” That’s part of the problem is adding traditions and proclamations to what Scripture asserts, and calling it the Word of God. The problem comes in deviating from Sola Scriptura. Heck I even get that, even with that driving us, we can arrive at different conclusions, but it still has to be the starting point, always.
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Controversy? Not for me.
Some traditions are good, as long as they have the blessing of history , truth, and common sense.
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Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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Thank you for addressing this issue so eloquently. Christ is responsible for our salvation and none other. Mary should be held in high esteem as the vessel which carried our Savior. Even she knew that and was humbled by it. There is no other mediator than Jesus and that is scriptural, not traditional. Thanks again.
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Nice encapsulation K.
If there is/was another mediator between God and man, then Houston, we have a problem.
There is no problem in Houston.
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This post conveys a total failure of discipleship.
Nobody worships the Virgin Mary.
So to present such a claim is raw ignorance on display.
If someone were to bother to actually read the Bible, it would tell them that Jesus’ first miracle was at the Wedding Feast of Cana.
Jesus performed the miracle (over protests from Jesus that this sort of thing didn’t concern him and that his time had not yet come) after Mary interceded with Jesus on behalf of the bride and groom. She wanted to save them the shame of running out of wine.
For the Catholics, this is a great mystery and demonstrates that Mary had the power to intercede on behalf of mankind, to her Son, Jesus.
Later, according to the Bible, while Jesus was hanging on the Cross, he gave his Mother to all mankind. He told Apostle John, “I give you my mother.”
2-6. All of these claims are explicitly written about in the Bible or a matter of reason based on who Jesus was in his dual nature as both God and man.
For example, if Jesus was God and Mary gave birth to him, thus becoming his mother, why then it is obvious through simple reasoning that Mary was the Mother of God.
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Tkx SoM for your willingness to show reluctance to bring out the guns.
I would beg to differ with your claim though that ‘nobody worships the Virgin Mary.’
How could you possibly know this? You have talked to every one who shows devotion to her, and you know worship is not ascribed?’
Certainly I know first hand that you are incorrect. That said, I do know of some who as it were put her on a level with God Himself, and others who simply pray to her asking for favors.
Borderline worship? But keep in mind, we understand that to many Catholics, Mary is not even on their radar. Are they then lousy Catholics?
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Storm,
If you really believe yourself, why did you list “worship of Mary” as number one in the list.
Storm I am heart stricken to finally conclude that you and Wally are nothing but trolls.
Catholics don’t worship the Virgin Mary.
Only God is to be worshipped.
To do otherwise is to commit idolatry, a violation of the 1st Commandment.
Neither is reverence of Mary necessary for salvation.
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It was a question Silence. As a matter of fact, there are many questions in all five posts. Count them.
Nobody said anything re. your last sentence.
So, after reading all five posts, you have concluded that Wally and I are somewhat other than true to the faith ‘once delivered to the saints……..’
The point about Jael being blessed ABOVE women escaped you? The point about Mary being blessed AMONG women escaped you?
Hmmm.
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Som, you’re right. Catholics don’t worship Mary. Cs is mistaught by his own evangelical tradition.
She is however accepted by official Catholic teaching and doctrine as Co mediator and Co redeemer. Roles that most Christians, who read Paul’s words to Timothy saying jesus is the only mediator and redeemer between god and man, would simply have to reject and find heretical.
I was raised in a non practicing Catholic home, had a very Catholic grandma (church still did the Latin mass.. pre Vatican 2) and later accepted Christ in a bible Baptist evangelical church at 15.
I know both sides of the coin. The whole coin is worthless as a steel slug.
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Mike–
You are a walking contradiction, and if you actually read all five posts, you would have a differing opinion.
Believe me, you are in no position to offer theological insight here. Just read your first and second sentence of your own comment.
And I assure you, neither you oo Som can speak for ALL people of this denomination. Sheesh.
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Well, cs. As a non Catholic, you can’t speak for anyone in that denomination. At all. You are a pretender to knowledge and insight you yourself do not possess.
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5 Sighs. Apparently you missed the place where the Roman fella was impressed I knew more of his religion than himself.
And he was sincere. And I was kind with him. All one needs is to know what is true, thereby instantly knowing what is false.
I challenge you to read all five posts, and see if there are any inconsistencies in what I put forth.
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Hey preacher Mike
Your thoughts on theological issues are about as useful as teats on a boar hog.
You would say the complete opposite of what you are saying if you thought it would sow dissension.
You are as transparent in your designs as if you were sitting in a glass cage. In fact, you are rather like a monkey in a cage who, when he gets frustrated and has no rational words to express himself, just starts flinging poo through the bars.
Your frustration is that you know you are impotent in the face of scripture…so out comes the poo.
Have a nice day!
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It is truly amazing W that the experts have no use for scripture. 😉
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You are “stricken” to know we are trolls? I bet you are LOL.
All I said here is that the content of the posts, all 5 of them(which I actually read), are in accordance with Scripture. If that makes me a troll, the I suppose I will take that.
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Well said Wally. We need not be ashamed to hold our steadfastness from Genesis onward.
Love Mary, but c’mon.
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No, and trying to shame believers into doubt with constant attacks on our intelligence, sanity, and whatever else can be cooked up is the favorite tactic of the enemy and can be very effective.
“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”
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Wally,
Your comments to me are examples of you trolling.
I’ll bet you had not realized that.
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SoM
Look, I’d really rather not contend with you on here, but I think that deserves and explanation. I read. I comment. I discuss. Sometimes I disagree.
How exactly is that trolling? That’s not a troll question, that is a serious question. If I am going to be accused of something, I should get to face my accuser. Seems I read that somewhere.
Seriously, though, how have I trolled?
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Wally,
You are a troll.
Your comments are sarcastic and mean spirited.
You have to troll because you don’t have the intellect, education or understanding of holy scripture, to muster any real arguments when someone expresses their profound disagreement with you.
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This was my initial comment on this thread.
“Well done my friend. It seems you have taken a difficult subject and dealt with it fairly and accurately, and yet without any of the vitriol things like this are sometimes presented with.
Jesus paid it all. All of it. Period. He needs to help from any man, any of our works, any saint, or any other mediator or co-anything.
To say anything is needed beside him dead, buried, and resurrected insults that sacrifice in the most awful ways, and is simply us thumbing our noses in God’s face and telling Him he just didn’t quite get it right….let us help you out a bit.”
Is that the one that was sarcastic and mean spirited?
If, if you disagree with what I laid out there in terms of absolute Scriptural truth, then lay it out and lets talk like two grown ups instead of two guys in a bar room brawl.
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You know what Silence? Here you are slapping people for simply believing the narrative of scripture, with your jive and loose interpretations.
You linked the ‘official teachings……..’ and I must say, it is so full of holes, I do not where where to start.
Granted a special exemption from sin so she could be the second Eve, herself free from sin, so she could be the mother of the second Adam?
You are making my point entirely. IF SCRIPTURE BE OUR GUIDE, it would be impossible for you to believe and promote such nonsense.
Eve was the wife of Adam, not his mother. Christ is not the SECOND Adam, but the LAST Adam, so sez scripture.
You may put forth your smooth attempts to hijack scripture, but it will be pointed out.
And also, do you have an ounce of discernment as to WHO is a believer based on these blogs?
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Storm,
Expressing my disapproval is not slapping people.
As for the rest of your comment you must be hallucinating me for someone else.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
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Try to stay focused Silence.
You tried to browbeat wally for God knows what.
Now here you come promoting ‘another gospel’ such as the sinlessness of Mary as the second Eve in the link you provided. Please.
You do not have that kind of liberty with God’s word, nor do a thousand cardinals, priests, popes, pastors, evangelists or whoever else .
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Storm,
If Mary was sinful, how could she possibly be a living vessel for Jesus, most pure?
That Mary was sinless, the New Eve is simple, common sense.
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Once more SilenceoM, you are being careless.
Being ‘sinful’ and being ‘sinless’ are two different things. I believe scripture says she was neither.
But your ‘new Eve’ stuff, is mere ahem, cough, cough, hallucination. ;
Not one idea of scripture supports Joseph’s wife wearing the twelve stars as you imagine. Sorry, but scripture has the final say, not commentaries, no matter how clever.
But common sense? You may want to check in with Paul the apostle on that.
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So, SoM
Did you want to counter anything that I said in my initial comment(which may or may not be the one you disapprove of), or would you rather keep hammering away for some imagined offense I have committed against you? Actually, if you would just state my offense, I will either make it right with you, or not depending on if the offense was real. Either way, until you actually articulate it, we seem to be at a road block.
If I have erred from Scriptural truth in it, as you seem to be convinced I have, then it is pretty much incumbent on you to show it.
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You should read these two posts which would shed more light to what you wrote.
https://spiritualminefield.wordpress.com/2016/09/23/part-1-mary-a-goddess-in-disguise/
https://spiritualminefield.wordpress.com/2016/10/04/part-2-mary-a-goddess-in-disguise/
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Here is a link to official Catholic teachings on the Virgin Mary,
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm
There is no mention of co-redeemer or co-mediator.
Only Jesus redeems.
However, as with the married couple at the Wedding Feast at Cana, the Virgin Mary intercedes on our behalf with her Son.
This is because we do not know how to pray but the Virgin Mary bore the Savior in her womb, suckled him, raised him, taught him and was therefore spiritually intimate with him and close to him as any mother is to her son.
The Catholics view the living and dead as the living family of God.
Jesus attested to this and proved it during his Transfiguration.
Family helps its members with their joys and troubles.
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Hey SoM
It’s not what is affirmed, but what is denied.
I am well aware of the Vatican councils and catechisms. Maybe even know more than you.
So what.
There is more in my posts to consider if you would try to see the big picture.
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Storm,
Again, you are hallucinating me with someone else.
I never mentioned Vatican councils or the catechism.
I gave you a link to reality with regard to actual Catholic teachings verses the Protestant bilge that simply isn’t true.
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Seriously silence?
The difference between us is that you need approval for what to believe, where I simply believe the text.
No mediator. That’s the difference silence. God speaks to individuals through His word, and deep answers to deep.
Your catechisms are sloppy, the teachings are I must say, profane in many places.
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Storm,
Your anti-Catholic bigotry and raw ignorance are not God speaking to you.
And Storm, since you are drowning yourself in the 2 inch deep sludge at the shallow end, you will never have any idea what goes on in the deep.
Actually, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is extremely precise and truthful.
It is you who are profane, ignorant, bigoted and hateful.
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Ask yourself Silence, and be honest to the core. If you picked up scripture, unaided by somebody else’s bias, could you possibly arrive at such teachings that you put forth?
Would people write catechisms and bulls based on scripture? If so why? Is scripture not sufficient?
Or must the common man be left in the dark, and be told what to believe?
Would there be indulgences, plenary and otherwise, would there be unctions, prayers for the dead, queens and such?
Or is not the King of kings enough? Get the point?
But ib22 is correct. Stop it already with the bigot crap. For God’s sake I have written in many places that some Catholics are finer Christians than others who are not Romans.
Geez louise. Read the posts in their intended context, and you may get the drift.
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@silenceofmind
I agree that Catholics don’t worship Mary. Since I was raised as a Catholic, I know Catholics don’t worship Mary. Catholics revere the saints. In Hebrews 11, we can even point to a Biblical basis for such a thing. Unfortunately, appearances are important, and reverence for the saints — even when it is not — can be seen as idolatry.
When CS first posted this series, I pointed it out that Catholics do not worship Mary. You can check out my comments on the old posts if you wish.
Part of what drove the Protestant Reformation is that it seemed to the reformers that the church fathers had taken it upon themselves to establish certain truths without much scriptural support. What ColorStorm has done is review some of those debates with respect to Mary.
Is ColorStorm unbiased? Nobody is unbiased, but I don’t detect much anger in ColorStorm’s posts.
Is the discussion worthwhile? That depends upon how we approach it. With love or hate.
What is fellowship in Jesus? It is about sharing in the things of Jesus. Part of fellowship involving comparing and contrasting each others beliefs about Jesus and His Bible. To become maturing Christians, we have to do that sort of thing respectfully.
Given the religious wars of the past, we should expect fellowship in Jesus to be easy. So the suggestion of prayer was well advised.
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I appreciate your attempt to arbitrate CT; always a good spirit when you carry your points.
I would disagree though when you say ‘Catholics do not worship Mary.’
As I said to Mike and Som, the only way that you could know this is if you knew every Catholic on earth.
There is the idea of an’angel of light’ in scripture, and beauty does have its appeal, especially in the religious realm.
The South Americans may differ with you, as perhaps the revelers at the Mardi gras.
But a co-redeemer, as if the Lord Christ needed help? This is in fact a statement of worship, as I describe at the head of the post.
Don’t think so, there is no 60/40 or 50/50 deals with God.
Invariably, God will fall on the short end of the stick. But yes, the discussion is worthwhile.
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I have never bothered to look up polling data. So I don’t know what percentage of Catholics worship Mary. I just know I never received any instruction to worship Mary. Since the Catholic Church has only one pope and only one catechism, I think I am fairly safe when I say Catholic doctrine does not make Mary a co-redeemer.
There is a huge difference between asking a saint to serve as our intercessor with God, to serve as our example, and worshiping the intercessor. Do people get confused? Of course. No matter what they are told, some people will get confused.
One of the problems with wars is ending them. During the 30 Years War, about a third of the population of Europe died. The havoc created by that war resulted in horrid epidemics and famine, hence the outrageous number of dead.
What caused the war? Look at the dates, between 1618 and 1648. Europe was in the midst of the Protestant Reformation and all sorts of other social changes, creating turmoil. Since we adjust to change so poorly, turmoil equates to death.
The fears engendered by the Thirty Years War and other conflicts still live with us. We see them in the form of prejudices feed to us by our forefathers.
My father was Irish, third generation American. He said little about it, but the IRA was still active when I was growing up. Occasionally, I saw he was still angry at what the Protestant English had done to the Catholic Irish.
The church I attend is Reform Church connected with the Baptists. I am happy the theology, but every now the pastor says something about Mormons or Catholics and I just wish he would not do that. It is what we stand for that matters, not who we are against. If we must condemn another faith, then we should do it because the people who practice that faith have left us no other choice.
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Hi ColorStorm, I put in too many spaces of something and got moderated. Sigh and thanks
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Well said, Colorstorm. Like it or not, Catholic doctrine or not, you are correct, many do worship Mary.
On the protestant side, some even “worship” Mary in a more metaphorical sense,her alleged “sin free status” being held up as an example for all of womanhood to try to emulate. I know several women really damaged and confused by this false teaching because not only is it impossible to be a sin free woman, Mary does not redeem, she is not our Savior. So you basically get women made keenly aware we are sinners, but having no access to grace because our eyes are being pointed in the wrong direction.
Than there are the young guys who have seen Mary worship themselves and feel as if faith is feminized, as if they are being called to goddess worship, as if God has no actual power, He is simply gentle and nurturing. And He is! He is such the Gentleman, but He has a great deal of power and authority, too. False teachings about Mary have done a great deal of harm in the world, I’ve heard it, seen it, read it, grieved over it, so it’s real enough.
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Great perspective msb. Tkx for this, really. The idea of the protestant side connection is awesome too.
If scripture is true, (since it is true) we must agree, and never fear speaking on things that are uncomfortable. After all, we do have the Comforter.
But as God is your consummate Gentleman, He never wants to hurt us.
I do believe it is theft of sorts to think that somehow ‘it is finished’ is subject to interpretation. It is not.
But happy mother’s day!
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Insanity,
There are no Catholics who worship Mary.
To do so would be idolatry, a violation of the 1st Commandment.
Your argument is the same as Zande’s argument that Hitler was a Catholic because a few priests appear in photos giving the Hitler salute.
Here is another example of how you think very much like atheists.
Neither you not the bigot Storm can produce one example of a Catholic who worships Mary.
Such idiocy would be akin to a claim that some atheists actually believe in God therefore atheism sucks.
You people really need some brain therapy. You seemed to have lost the ability even to reason out simple ideas.
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Fortunately there are no Catholics who practice adultery, either. Also, we live in a perfect world and the forest creatures talk to us.
You need to tone your hostility down. Our host is not a bigot.
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Insanity,
Idolatry is not a mere imperfection.
It is an incomprehensibly gross error.
The second you get a brain and tone down your ignorance, I’ll tone down my sharp, well-deserved rebuke of such shamelessness.
Supporting an ignoramus like Storm in his anti-Catholic bigotry is unbecoming of you, who supposedly preach the Gospel teaching of Christ.
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“Idolatry is not a mere imperfection.
It is an incomprehensibly gross error.”
One exceedingly prevalent all over the modern world. We’re swimming in golden calves. One cannot just click their heels together and pretend it does not exist.
Once again, our host is not a bigot.
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Insanity,
Worship of Mary is idolatry, not adultery.
Because you haven’t developed the ability to think rationally you don’t see the error of comparing apples and oranges.
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You’re not reading properly, and you’re not thinking rationally at all, Silence. Whatever has gotten into you? Are you well? Is something going on that you want to talk about?
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Insanity,
The old, “he doesn’t think like me so he must be mentally ill,” is what atheists do.
Again, another example of how atheism is so deeply embedded into your heart, mind and soul.
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I did not ask if you were mentally ill. I asked if you were well, meaning your well being?
You are raging all about the intertoobz and attacking people who are kind to you. I have no idea why, but it is slightly out of character. So once again, are you well?
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Insanity,
Truly I was greatly saddened by Storm’s use of the Bible to justify his flat Earth madness.
And finding out that Wally was a common troll saddened me deeply..
But rest assured that I give the atheists just as hard a time as I give people who use the Bible to justify their noxious ideas.
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Actually Silence, far greater minds than yours have concluded using science, facts, logic, AND scripture, that there are valid reasons for what you do not understand.
Do you notice that they do not call others who disagree with them lunatics? (but why must you now enter something here totally irrelevant….)
As to the idea of ‘noxious ideas,’ you may want to actually read the epistles, and see if there is justification for the building of shrines (ala Tricia) to Mary, ala again, and the canonization of the little girls who saw a vision in Fatima ring a bell?
Sure SilenceoM, it’s written right there in Galatians eh, how to dub one a saint for seeing a vision……….
Please. And btw, I do not ‘use’ scripture, it presents itself. Thank God I know how to read and understand context.
But do feel to ‘use’ the scriptures yourself………to justify patronage of some who see faces of Christ on toast, doors, clouds, or hear voices.
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Storm,
No, greater minds they mine have NOT concluded that the Earth is flat.
Only stupid people believe the Earth is flat.
But it is the blasphemer who takes it upon himself to desecrate holy scripture to justify his stupidity.
Further, who is the “they” that you refer to?
Oh yes, you are referring to yourself and the rat in your pocket.
And since Christianity was going strong for decades without any epistles, the logical conclusion is that the Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura is a total fail.
Jesus didn’t write down anything for his Apostles to follow.
He personally trained them and taught them himself.
The Catholic Church carries on that Tradition to this day all the while revering the Bible as the Word of God.
And Strom just because you see a meteor streak across the sky and think God is talking to you, real Christians see actual, incredible, God-in-your-face miracles multiple times in their lives.
I was once transfigured on a mountain top in a scene right out of the book of Revelation.
It didn’t last for 1 or two seconds. It lasted for a long, long time and even walked me off the mountain top.
I believe that miracle was given to me for the same reason Jesus’ gave his Transfiguration to the Apostles:
To give them courage and encouragement for the incredibly tough times ahead.
And I can’t tell you how many times the Saints have come to my aid to resolve very simple, mundane difficulties.
I’ve seen angles appear as baby deer to help a father and son say goodbye to each other.
Like Christ’s Resurrection from the dead, Mary has appeared before people on this Earth.
That is because God is the God of living, not the dead.
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silenceoM,
Your first two sentences, (again you should ask yourself WHY you must steer a post into the weeds) have pretty much discredited your next batch of commenting there.
So with good reason I will remain the silent one. Not because your points are superior. It is because you are in no frame of mind to appreciate what I would say. 😉
But I suggest you read all five posts AGAIN. Slowly. Carefully. Why don’t you think about it for a week or two, a month, or a year, and see if maybe, just maybe, I have said nothing amiss.
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Strom,
You are stupid.
Responding to your stupidity is certainly degrading and distasteful but how can it be “into the weeds” when they originate with your own commentary.
Conclusion, Strom is not only stupid, but he lives in the weeds.
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Tkx Silence, but I’m pretty sure I know what my own post concerns. It is not about a still lake or the level horizon.
‘Kings and queens’ remember?
You make accusations with no basis in fact. I did not say God presented himself through a meteor. Look at the context.
Tesla disagreed with Einstein. So what. This post is not about them. Try to stay focused.
And listen to good advice willya. But congratulations SoM. You have provided wonderful ammunition for your new allies mike (aka kia, and the others) to pit you against believers. Nice work.
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Silence of Mind
IB is not an atheist
ColorStorm is NOT a stupid bigot.
I am not a troll.
Again, I implore you one last time, then I have no more for you. People disagree. People talk. Sometimes they come to an agreement; sometimes they don’t. But they get there by acting like grown ups and talking about the issues they are talking about, not the character of the person they are talking to.
Not one person here has done anything wrong to you other than to disagree with you. Whoopie. It not a crime, and it is not an assault on you or your faith. But, look at yourself….you have yet to address any issue of Scripture brought up here, but have slandered almost every single person coming here.
I agree, our Lord expects us to defend His Word. He does not expect us, however, to kill each other in the process.
Let’s do that shall we? What I mean is, let’s talk about this Scriptural issues at hand, not each other. This is NOT helping the Kingdom at all, and my participation in it is drawing to an end.
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Well played W for such an under the bridge troll.
Well said and spot on.
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Thank, friend.
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Wally,
The Earth is not flat and the Bible has nothing to say on the matter.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Troll is as troll does.
There are no scriptural issues at all with regard to flat Earth.
And I refuse further comment concerning the Virgin Mary because you people simply refuse to accept what scripture says about her.
On the contrary, Wally, it does help the Kingdom for people to work against the ignorance, stupidity, arrogance and bigotry that you and Storm hallucinate the Christian religion to be.
I don’t want to be confused as having anything to do with you and Storm and your Stupid Crusade to a Godless society.
Hopefully I have made myself clear.
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Yes. Abundantly clear. Prayers for you friend and peace too
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Seriously silence. Wally addressed you perfectly. I also pointed out to you that greater minds than yours disagree with you completely on many things, including the very terra firma that you place your feet on. This post is not about those things, so stop it.
As to OUR not addressing scripture? Please. Five posts with nothing but the warp and woof of God’s word.
You accused me of saying Mary was sinful, and I showed you that she as a child of Adam, was not SINLESS. I have the backing of God, heaven, and scripture. She admitted her need for a ‘Saviour.’
Ever read ‘ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God?’ What, she being sinless is her own Saviour? The death of Christ was not for her? Talk about hallucinating Silence. Geez.
With every comment of yours silence, you are proving the real need for these posts.
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@ insanitybytes22
Your coming along side and offering a Barnabas like infusion is appreciated.
Real angel work there. Reminds me of the mighty Gabriel. Consolation is not easy work.
For believers to be put in the same camp as the customers who usually abrade us for believing scripture…….by others who claim to believe the same book, is truly distressing.
If we only knew what exactly was going on when the ‘devil took the Lord,’ and tempted Him, on the high mountain, and from the temple, we may gain insight into the spirit of ‘understanding, reason, accusations,’ when it is not tempered by the consistency of scripture.
God’s words are pure.
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Anonymous eh? So what are we talking to a ghost? your next comment went to moderation because it is all run together and WP picked it up as spam.
Thank you. It completely makes my point. Both of a need for a series like mine, and the fact that you and others have by your own mouths, made her equal with God. Nice work.hope Silence of mind is watching. There is no excuse for such degradation of scripture, especially when God warns us of such things.
Angels of light eh?.
Now get a Word Press account, I do not like talking to ghosts.
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‘Queen of heaven and earth.’
I rest my case silenceofmind.
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Storm, read the book of revelations. It’s all there. Don’t you believe in what the Bible says?
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Storm,
The above comment is courtesy of moi. I was on an iPad and didn’t fill in the blanks at the bottom of the comment.
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SilenceoM
Not to be an offender for a word, but it is the book of Revelation. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, a series of that which was, that which is, and that which is to come.
Loose reading leads to loose interpretations, so yes, I believe every word that which is written.
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Storm,
You can’t rest your case because you have no case at all.
Anti-Catholic bigotry and statements of ignorance like “Queen of heaven and earth,” don’t support any case at all.
Please follow the link I provided. Everything that is written about there is given a scripture citation for support.
All Catholic doctrine is based on the Bible. The Mass is Catholic Bible-based worship.
Since it is the Catholic Church, and not you, who compiled the first Bible and did so specifically to further the Catholic religion, people like you have no authority or standing to give the Bible any meaning at all.
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Silence-
Because others read, follow, and sit from afar, participate, and watch interaction between believers, I can say to you with heavens blessing and God’s authority, that there is zero anti Catholic bigotry, but there is complete admiration for God’s word, which you should know, is magnified higher than God’s name itself.
If you understood this, you too would.understand a persons frame of reference for the authority of scripture, over ten thousand popes, or 40, 000 Billy Grahams. Perhaps you do not understand. That’s ok, not all are at the same mile markers in life.
But what I write is to please God, and not you. If you are pleased ,that’s a bonus. There is nothing hurtful or untruthful in what I say, but there is a bias in your clinging to things that have long been disproven. Sorry, but it’s a fact.
What is startling however, is the silence from people who should know better.
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Storm,
The Bible is not a world book.
The Bible is a Catholic book, compiled by the Catholic Church at the end of the 4th century.
It was put together to further the spread of Catholic Christianity.
What you suggest is that Billy Graham, knowing more than JK Rolling about her Harry Potter books than she does, can simply give them new meaning.
It’s the same with the Bible.
Neither you, nor Billy Graham nor Martin Luther were ever mentioned in the Bible.
Therefore you have nothing whatsoever to do with it and must leave it be.
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Good gravy silence. The Jewish believers would beg to differ from you, and they would clean your clock with common sense.
For God’s sake, the Catholic church was in diapers when Daniel, Isaiah, Moses, Noah, Ruth, Naomi, and King David were about their business.
Their ‘bible’ was hardly Catholic.
Now you are lecturing believers on what is in the scripture? C’mon silence, wake up.
Do you hear me boasting of indulgences?
Does it also pain you to know that ‘the saints in Rome’ were common believers, ALIVE, doing nothing extraordinary other than being rooted in Christ?
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Storm,
Jewish believers would beg to differ with me because they Jews.
But Jews aren’t the problem.
And you can’t hallucinate away history:
The first Bible was compiled at the end of the 4th century by Pope Damasas I.
Not, Billy Graham. Not Martin Luther. Not you. Not Wally.
That Bible was called the Vulgate Bible and served the Christian world for over 1000 years.
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Well then silence, you have a problem.
For the first eight years, the church of the living God was entirely Jewish, and you can be assured, they neither prayed to Mary not met in stained glass buildings.
Are you listening? Completely Jewish. Peter had to be clubbed over the head to visit Cornelius, a Gentile, (you know, anybody who was not Jewish.)
There was no mass, no indulgences, and the church flourished. Then there was Saul/Paul, the intellectual one of the New Testament, whose power in scripture was second to none.
He was not married by the way, while Peter, ahem, cough cough, was. Quite the dilemma for the supposed first pope. 😉
Scripture interprets itself Silence. Christians will come to agreement, unless…………there is fog in the way.
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Storm,
Jewish people became Christian.
Christians didn’t become Jews unless they rejected the teachings of Jesus.
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Silence,
My comment sailed over your head. You remind me of the talking heads who prepare their next interruption and do not hear a word put to them.
There was no catholic church in the days of the apostles. For God’s sake man, they ‘went into the temple at the hour of prayer.’
The existing Jewish temple that is. And your second sentence is so far out of touch with reality, logic, and scripture, I’ll not embarrass you with a reply.
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Such an interesting post ColorStorm and I’m looking forward to reading through the others in the series. I ponder a lot on Catholicism because I just don’t understand where in the Bible so many of it’s traditions come from. Yet throughout history there have been many intelligent, brilliant and deeply spiritual Catholics which makes me aware there is much more to it than my own jaundiced view. As far as to whether Catholics worship Mary, well they do build huge, elaborate churches dedicated to her and view her as the temple of God here on earth. Some might call that worship.
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Tkx T, it is surely a discussion not to fear, and take note that it was mentioned several times: ‘IF scripture be our guide.’
This is why we go sideways. We get captivated by emotion or our own biased reason, and scripture is then NOT our guide.
Heck, people were lopping heads in the name of Christ, thinking they were doing God a favor……meanwhile, scripture was not their guide.
Something else was, hence these posts.
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I think CS that what you say here about being captivated by emotion and our own biases is the essential issue man has always struggled with since God created Adam and Eve. Comes down to pride, pride and more pride. Thanks for exploring this important topic in these posts. Hopefully I can get to the others today.
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Tkx T, and I would wonder what your thoughts are after contemplating the whole package.
Btw, surely you know by now that I have spoken favorably to our Catholic brethren in the past, and on occasion folks would tell me: ‘wow, I didn’t even know that, tkx for the heads up.’
This is good when differing views can be reasoned.
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Honestly CS, I haven’t dug in to things far enough but I’ve been thinking for awhile that I’d like to take a course on Catholic theology to at least know what I don’t even know, if you know what I mean. 😉
I personally believe we do have a direct relationship with Christ(if we choose) and don’t need to pray to anyone else to intercede for us. I just don’t see how it could work any other way as the either bible speaks to this.
I can say that of all the Catholics I know, very few seem to be familiar with the Bible, nor live the way I believe Jesus instructs us to. Many have fallen away from faith all together due to bad childhood experiences with the Catholic Church. That is a very small sampling of course.
I didn’t take your post as an insult towards Catholics, I found it very intelligent and I agree for the most part with it. I think it’s definitely a good thing to open up discussions like this, it helps all of us. Those interested in learning any way….
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Tricia,
Name a Catholic tradition, and I will give a Bible reference to it.
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SOM, where does it state anything about church hierarchy, such as having popes, cardinals and bishops? I would think most of the NT pretty much rebuts the idea of putting one above another.
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Tricia,
The authority to build the Church and the establishment of the first pope comes from Matthew 16:18 and 18:18.
These scriptures are an example of how a particular interpretation can define a meaning completely different from another interpretation.
Catholic doctrine holds that the Church is Apostolic, that is, it descends from the teachings of Apostles who were trained by Christ.
The Apostles were the first bishops and people like Barnabas were the first priests and deacons.
If you read Acts, Barnabas didn’t appoint himself, he was anointed by a laying on of hands by one of the Apostles.
Jesus said that the Church would last forever. And so far, the Catholic Church is the oldest institution in world history.
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Well I certainly do agree that people interpret different meanings from scripture. I think that makes for a stronger argument though to not have such powerful positions of hierarchy within the church. All men are fallen, even the Pope.
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Tricia,
We know from the Bible that only Jesus knew the meaning of the holy scriptures.
And we also know from the Bible that Jesus revealed that meaning to the Apostles.
Martin Luther was not an Apostle, he was a Catholic priest.
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Well guess what silence? You are off to a rockin poor start to preach so called apostolic succession around this zip code.
The very scriptures that you appeal to condemns your defense of denominational structure quicker than you can say ‘Mary was sinless and popes are infallible.’
The apostle Peter was married.
The apostle Paul was not.
Seems the choice for the first ‘pope’ was suspect.
Peter was a hypocrite regarding Gentiles, and had to be rebuked by Paul. Infallibility be damned. It’s called being human.
Try to stay focused. I did not write a treatise on the bastard child’s caused by denominations. I am not tearing to shreds Catholicism. There are weaknesses with all sects, because people are peccable.
Read the post again. Mary was not sinless, and there is this thing called Mariolotry which you have to ignored and denied.
(and remember, all your atheist friends are watching, and will side with you. That should concern you) 😉
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Storm,
I am not like you or Wally. I don’t preach.
Alicia asked a question about Catholic doctrine.
I answered the inquiry.
If Mary was not sinless, that means that Jesus was born in sin.
Jesus was born pure as the white driven snow.
That means the womb (temple) from which he came also had to pure.
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I am well aware Silence of Tricia’s question. Only after you goaded her to find a weakness in ‘Catholicism.’
Newsflash SilenceoM. Here’s is the crux of the matter.
You will take the word of a thousand popes,bulls, and tradition of a sect, over God’s word.
I and other believers, hold in esteem God’s word over a thousand popes. His word is revealed to ‘whosoever will’ by His own goodness. I know this troubles you, but God is good like that.
See the difference and become learned. Did you ask God to reveal to you if my posts are rubbish? Seems you have decided long ago, truth be damned.
And read my replies to you. Every one. You have successfully managed to ignore what is staring you in the face. As I said, ‘in the weeds.’
Mariolotry has long been a tour de force and ‘another gospel’ warned about in the scriptures you say you admire.
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Tricia,
One other thing, if we are all fallen then that is positive proof that no one is capable of interpreting the Bible.
But the pope does not appoint himself to his position. He is chosen by his peers through election.
Also, popes are bishops which means they are well educated and trained and are spiritual descendants of the Apostles.
For the Protestant, any Tom, Dick or Harry can appoint themselves preacher and create their own church with its own brand of theology.
In short, what you object to in Catholicism, Protestantism puts on steroids and institutionalizes it.
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Tricia, I thought this might interest you, as I happen to agree totally with what you just said. The following two items are from the Doctrinal Statement of the work I am part of, and I think represents clearly what the Bible teaches about churches and offices in the church
“We believe that Jesus Christ established His church during His ministry on earth and that it is always a local, visible assembly of scripturally baptized believers in covenant relationship to carry out the Commission of the Lord Jesus Christ, and each church is an independent, self-governing body, and no other ecclesiastical body may exercise authority over it. We believe that Jesus Christ gave the Great Commission to the New Testament churches only, and that He promised the perpetuity of His churches (Matt. 4:18-22; Matt. 16:18; Matt. 28:19, 20; Mark 1:14-20; John 1:35-51; Eph. 3:21).”
” We believe that there are two divinely appointed offices in a church, pastors and deacons, to be filled by men whose qualifications are set forth in Titus and 1 Timothy.”
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I do like that Wally and it is very interesting, thanks. There always has to be some sort of leadership and Silence, I do get what you’re saying too about the Catholic church hierarchy. Catholicism seems to put so much emphasis though on men in powerful positions to be able to make enormously consequential decisions and they live as wealthy as any king. I just don’t see how that reconciles with a lot of what Jesus teaches, particularly in Matthew 23:8-12.
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Well, pastor rule o]in a congregation is simply not taught in scripture, Tricia. Of course our leaders, Pastors, Deacons.and even teachers do have authority in a sense, but not any sort of absolute legal type authority.
We even have a fully congregational form of church government, as even the idea that a group of men would make decisions on behalf of the rest of us is not Biblical really. Even Jesus, when he formed the first church on the shores of Galilee, conducted what business they conducted in that way. Note that, although He led them, when they replaced Judas the traitor, the church(that group of apostles) did it jointly.
In our work, each church is fully independent and responsible only to Jesus. We form associations, but they are not permanent and have no authority over individual churches.
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Tricia,
Here in Acts is a description of the Church and the Church hierarchy working to solve problems of scripture and doctrine:
Acts 15:22-31
Some disciples were using holy scripture to justify the acceptance of Mosaic Law, namely circumcision, before they could become Christians.
The Apostles having been given ecclesiastical authority from Jesus, had the authority to settle the matter. They did that and also issued a warning against the Wally’s and the Storms of world who take it upon themselves to interpret holy scripture and spread confusion.
Even Paul came before Peter, the first pope, and the other Apostles (bishops) and submitted to their (Church) authority.
In Acts 15:22-31 are more examples of how preachers are chosen by Church authorities, not self-appointed. In this case, Judas and Silas were brothers chosen to take a decision of doctrine, that differed from the Jewish understanding of holy scripture, to Christian gentiles in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia.
Anyway, it isn’t necessary for you to agree with what I am saying.
I only wish to demonstrate that the doctrine and structure of the Catholic Church is found in the Bible.
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See silence, you can be decent when you want to be.
But you had to go off the rails when you spoke of the ‘first pope business.’ lol
The main issue with your belief set, it appears, is you need the approval of others to tell you what scripture says, and what you are allowed to believe.
Whereas I and others, simply believe in the fidelity of the text, and act accordingly because of the faith once delivered to the saints..
Paul writes ‘to the saints at Rome,’ not some wishy washy hope of appealing to others long gone, or hoping that one day their ‘work’ will be canonized or recognized, such as the recent fiasco of the little girls at Fatima.
No silence. Scripture is enough, and contains all that pertains to life and Godliness, catechisms be dmaned.
But let’s remember that it was Peter who was rebuked by Paul in Galatians, thus setting aside in an instant the absurd notion pf papal infallibility.
(Do you notice how your friend zande is strangely silent btw? He knows what I say is true.)
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Storm,
Seeking the truth from those who know what truth is, is not seeking approval.
If you want to learn math, you go to a math teacher.
If you want to know what the Bible means you go to the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church didn’t make it up.
It’s right there in the Bible if you care to read about it.
Acts provides a great description of the early Church of which, the Catholic Church is a continuation.
All the popes can be traced back to Peter, the rock upon which Christ built his Church.
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-SoM sez:
‘If you want to know what the Bible means you go to the Catholic Church.’
Hmm. Make that double hmmm bartender.
Thus are the shackles revealed. No Silence, this isn’t the dark ages. ANYBODY can read,, unimpeded by men, with the Spirit of God alone as the teacher who alone can be trusted, having no agenda.
You may want to consider the short sightedness of what you are saying here.
When Philip unfolded truth to the eunuch, there was no
New Testament, no Catholic church, no indulgences required, no masses, no nothing. Isaiah presents the Lamb of God, and a seeker of truth immediately recognizes truth wherever it is found.
And your math teacher idea proves my point. He can be an Einstein yet be clueless as to the spiritual things of God. Sorry, Silence, I’ll take the word of God over 30,000 popes, as I said before.
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Storm,
If you read the Bible, specifically the Acts of the Apostles, you will see the biblical origin of the Catholic Church.
I only 6 weeks as a Protestant precisely because I could read the Bible for myself.
Again, where in the Bible does is Martin Luther’s doctrine of sola scriptura?
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Storm,
Where in the Bible does it ever say that scripture is enough?
Can you give a specific quote from either the Old or New Testament.
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Sure.
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(So sez Peter. A servant, and an apostle. It is the scriptures alone that give definition to the Christian life)
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Storm,
Where in the Bible does the Martin Luther’s doctrine of sola scriptura?
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Storm,
You can’t find any mention of the doctrine of sola scriptura in the Bible because it isn’t there.
Martin Luther made it up.
And since Martin Luther isn’t mentioned in the Bible, either, you are simply preaching confusion because you don’t really believe in God or Jesus.
You believe in your own, comfortable, personal hallucination of the way you think things should be – just like an atheist, I might add.
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Are you listening SoM? You asked for a reference, and I gave you one of many.
Scripture contains ‘ALL that pertains to life and Godliness.’
I do not need Luthers approval, nor a dozen popes. I don’t see why this is difficult for you to fathom.
Try actually digesting what is put before you, instead of immediately casting it aside.
I’m telling you the truth.
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Storm,
What chapter and verse in the Bible lays out the doctrine of sola scriptura?
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-SoM
Chapter and verse to make you happy?
Nowhere.
Everywhere.
I suggest you find it on your own. It is there, free for the taking.
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Storm,
Exactly! Nowhere.
You’re like a person who sees Jesus in a box of Cheerios.
Catholics on the other hand can point the exact chapter and verse on every bit of doctrine in their faith.
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Good gravy. Som. you missed it!
Chapter and verse? People who ask for that do not see the thread of enmeshed truth from Genesis to Revelation. It IS everywhere.
From a demure text such as ‘unto the coping’ regarding the building of the temple, to such truth as ‘it is the glory of God to conceal a matter………..’
………….which glory by the way was perfectly demonstrated on Golgotha’s hill……when Christ, and not Mary, put away sin, once and forever.
Your lame insults are becoming tiring though truth be told.
Yeah silence, go ahead and point the chapter and verse of the sinlessness of Mary, and do not bring your absurd traditions and inferences.
You will look in vain, and don’t try, because you will embarrass yourself.
You cannot win this argument, because scripture has the final say, not you, me, Luther, Calvin, or all your popes combined.
This must be hard for you to digest, that there are actually people who put more credence in scripture than they do papal bulls.
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My, my, my…. Such bickering.
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