Ah yes, time for a fireside chat due to the tundra of North America. lol. Is this a big deal? Depends on you, but personally, I refuse to take my cues from the godless and alleged superior minds of infidel astrophysicists and television comedians. True science has always laid by the wayside every form of Assumptions.
This will be so easy to tear to shreds, like a pack of wild hyenas snickering at the fresh meat, all vying for the choice cuts, but what does the heading have to do with 2019? Let’s consider this through that wonderful lens and word ‘doctrine,’ as God has much to say about things out of our comfort zone, but we greatly err if we neglect to hear what God has to say regarding the doctrine of science.
Doctrine is sound teaching that withstands every ground and aerial assault, and in return provides correct context, without which, all opinions are equal. Sorry no. God’s word is not a book of opinions. It is a matter of fact.
There is nothing in common with atheism and science, true science that is, and there is nothing in common with the demented atheistic version of history either. Scripture cannot be compared, stands alone, and more importantly, cannot be broken.
Scripture is the only standard whereby all other disciplines are judged. Why? Because it is correct. Correct in every way. God’s word tells us so succinctly (because all men want to know) that the heavens declare the glory of God, and only a fool looking to a star lit sky would argue otherwise.
False science despises the FACT that male and female created He them, as it was in the beginning, and as far as it appears, male and female, man and woman, still confirm this truth. Inconvenient of course to atheism and Chuck Darwin, but let God be true, and every man a liar. Easy enough.
But this is easier yet. The common atheist, while having a bible in hand, and unaided by the poisonous forked tongued whispers of ‘you really can’t believe THAT can you?’ has every bit of evidence and proof that would stand the test and scrutiny of the most savvy attorney trying to discredit it, whereby an honest judge must admit: ‘Get out of my courtroom councilor, God’s word is good!’ Key word, Honest.
…..But having every proof so rejects it, while at the same time believing the mindless assumptions of an orbiting spinning ball, while having zero proof, yet so accepts it! Talk about the disconnect of the ages. Is God’s earth in the world one of seven, or just another wandering star? Could our world be cited for jaywalking? A serious question.
To the believer I say: atheism needs the spinning ball to discredit the Creator. It needs the world to be one of many, insignificant as it were, irrelevant even, it needs the whirlybird to further godless evolution. It needs the globe to perpetuate accidental creation which of course leaves out God. Why can’t you or at least wont you consider this?
Have we fallen so low that we bow to the godless theories of atheistic evolution and accepted them as fact? Have we feasted on the assumptions of false science to be considered smart in the eyes of the world?
Have we become stooges of the govt at every turn? Sure there are good programs and agencies, but c’mon, do we need space agencies to tell us where we live? Do we need CGI images created by geeks in control rooms to convince us that our very eyes deceive us? Do we need their warped and perverted fish eye lens to SUGGEST to our minds that a water skier is traversing the waves of the ocean on a BALLED surface. Is it not embarrassing to be so susceptible to such blatant error?
God forbid King Solomon was lost as fog because he did not look through Hubble. The good king was not lost as fog, and had far better vision. Did Joshua not know that the backward moving of the sun ten degrees was not true, and that his senses lied to him? Joshua was not lost as fog, and the sun moved backward ten degrees for the simple reason the sun moves forward, JUST AS IT APPEARS.
But no, we need godless scientists, math teachers with endless equations that no one understands, and lying astronomers to tell us our very eyes deceive us, then while we see water moving, birds flying, clouds passing, cows walking, snow falling, we should trust our eyes to this, but not trust them to that. Who can function with such assaults to the brain, to be forced to accept certain realities, while denying others?
The moon moves overhead. The sun moves overhead. Rivers flow. Oceans roll. Railroads traverse planes. No devil on earth can prove this wrong. Rollercoasters go upside down at amusement parks. Guess what? The only unnatural thing I’ve just said is that upside downness to humans, is not natural; our senses know this, as dizziness is proof enough, yet, Yet, YET, YET, we are led to believe that our feet on terra firma are really not stable as we await the bus, and that we are moving, but cannot sense it or feel it. OooooKaaaaaay.
My senses can be trusted, but we need so-called scientists, Hollywood, rocketmen, or federal agencies to tell us not to trust what our eyes see? Don’t think so. I’ve said it before and it bears repeating: God has not made humans such as insects, with abilities to walk upside down on ceilings, or walk on a basketball all around like an ant. The insect preaches an immoveable earth just as scripture asserts, and thankfully, common sense, reason, logic, and of course nature all confirm this.
I challenge anybody reading to take a 2nd, 3rd, 4th look at the image behind David Muir every night of a rotating ball. Subtle? Overt? Conditioning? Affirmation? Or a decoy to make common that which is not common at all, that being, God’s beautiful and wondrous creation, which belongs to Him, and not registered trademarks.
By the way, scripture never teaches that the earth is water. The earth is IN the water, and the earth AND the water constitute the world. Never in all of scripture, never, no never, not once, is the world EVER alluded to as a sphere. I suggest we allow God the courtesy of His own engineering as the wise master builder, and pay attention to God’s detail in things. He created the alphabet doncha know, and He knows how to collate information far better than you or I.
We give renowned engineers the accolades due them for constructing towers, yet reject the true Architect of life. Not too smart in my opinion. But c’mon friends, be honest. We have never given this topic the respect it deserves, and have cheated ourselves out of riches far greater than what we are fed by the god of this world, who has his mitts in commerce, media, labor, law, science, sports, education, and you name it.
But hope this post warmed your innards in the cold of January.
Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging and commented:
Another well done post my friend 😎
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You are a glutton for punishment Vin, sending out something so contrary as this, but Tkx.
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Reblogged this on Jesus Quotes and God Thoughts and commented:
Here is some great truth on a cold day.
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I like it, Colorstorm! Hope you’re staying toasty warm. 🙂
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Just knowing you read it- and saying u like it- is enough. 😊
Appreciate the right hand msb, and yes, keeping warm thank God.
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Not to mention that false science also declared a decade or so ago that the planet would be engulfed in flames by now and humans extinct from global warming. I say bring it on, the frozen tundra needs it!
So Tricia, do you also believe like color storm that the earth is flat?
Well well well, look who showed up. Where do I use the word ‘flat’ mike? Or do you confuse also 60mph with idling?
But if you want to chastise me for MY views, try it. Use MY words, not your opinion of what I said.
But why don’t you gather all your atheistic/evolution friends to your blog- write a post- PROVING the earth moves at 1000 ph, orbiting at an insane unprovable speed of 67,000……… go ahead, prove it.
And no opinions- no cartoon images-no hearsay=no theories-no assumptions- prove it-
YOU are making the claim. Prove it. I claim it is stationary, and apparently my eyes agree, but perhaps you can see around bends……….perhaps you specialize in witchcraft and have seen the earth move one inch. Hilarious.
But maybe you have seen the water skier traverse the basketball in the ocean…………After all mike, your lying hero friends have seen it. Hilarious.
And don’t say one word about ‘LET HER ANSWER FOR HERSELF.’ My blog. I’ll comment anytime I want, especially when people try to create false trainwrecks among believers, which seems is your specialty.
Of course she can answer, she may be a tad more smarter in knowing that good people are not at the same mile marker in life…………
But of course you will not understand this. But of the MANY posts I’ve written on this topic, not once have you faulted one thing I have said. This is the atheistic ploy that you learned so well.
Thx John for the invitation, but I’ll just wait till Tricia answers my original question for herself. Have a great day
Yep, in the meantime, you go ahead and figure out a way to tell yourself your eyes are lying when they see water moving, birds flying, snow falling, the moon moving, the sun moving, but only one of these is fake.
Good luck with that. So you see how you lay your own snares, and try to push off your ignorance on others.
the lions den will tear you to shreds with facts and common sense.
Actually John, all of those mentioned things are moving.
Super. You are making progress. So you admit the earth is stationary………….just AS IT APPEARS. See how easy.
No John. The earth is not flat. It’s a spheroid shape. The Greeks knew this 2000+yrs ago
Quik question mike. What day of the week was it when you saw the earth move? What year?
Were you surprised when you experienced it for the first time? Were you dizzy with elation?
And WHEN did you learn to walk on ceilings like an ant? When did the Creator so equip you with such marvelous feats?
Key word today: common sense. Try it sometime.
Common sense isn’t nearly as common or reliable as it used to be. We know more now that by common sense we used to dismiss with a hand wave.
Common sense and intuition are both too faulty and Fallible the to be relied on at determining truth on scales any larger than our own limited individual perspectives.
But I’m still waiting for you to stop interrupting and smply allow Tricia to answer my original question. Have a great day
Hey mike. Argue a point I have made. Cite the error of my ways instead of your reliance on lying history and cartoons.
I understand you are at a disadvantage here, but the issue is with YOU, not tricia.
YOU are faulting my premise, not her. So go ahead, and YOU cite the paragraph, sentence, cite something I have said in THIS post, or others, and rest assured,
I will tear your analysis to shreds.
The FACT is, you cant. Or did you not notice the key word in the heading FACT………..
Oh well. Maybe trisha will answer someday
You know what you remind me of mike?
A guy is on trial for grand theft, extortion, murder, and all evidence is produced against him; eyewitnesses, fingerprints, confession, all in all done, yet he and his wily attorney point to a guy in the front row who stole penny candy once, from his BROTHER, and try to get the jury and judge to focus on the guys pimple on his cheek, as a pure distraction.
This is the essence of atheistic science, in which you are a certified member.
Yes, this is YOUR sideshow. This is FACT. I rest my case. You sir, are guilty and contempt of court. 30 days in the hole in darkness or until such time as you wake up.
And the earth is not stationary. As I said… All of the things you mentioned are moving.
uh oh trish, you are now guilty by association by daring to appear on such ‘controversy!’ Ha.
But I wont stand idly by while the likes of the comedians Nye and DeGrasse spew their lying opinions of God’s creation. That’s right, GOD’S creation.
But people will complain about various viewpoints (such as mine) without ever stopping to think who gave us the brain to even think of viewpoints. Sheesh.
But the naysayers will arrive, and chastise any or all of my friends for daring to comment publickly; you missed what some tried to say about ib, Wally, and Ctom.
But tkx for daring to be a Daniel, or Esther,;) and refusing to bow to the little gods atheism and the rest, who collectively cant tie their shoes or count to 3.
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May be guilt by Association CS but I’m such good company I cannot think it to be a bad thing. 😉
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Haha- I like it.
Strangers need to pay attention how believers are not Stepford wives- Lol
That we are actually allowed to disagree, until such time as more light shines. 😊
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Hey, I really liked your post, there’s just one thing I noticed and thought I’d share my thoughts on. When you stated this below, I felt that it was irrelevant, and here’s why. The Bible isn’t a scientific document. It’s well known that the tone expressed in the ancient writing isn’t scientific. If you assume so, you’re opening yourself up to various fallacies, and the Bible from this angle falls apart. It’s isn’t meant to be a scientific document, primarily because it wasn’t written for us. These two quotes from John Walton help convey my point:
“He does reveal his work is the world, but he doesn’t reveal how the world works.”
“Even though the Bible is written for us, it isn’t written to us.”
FROM YOUR POST
“By the way, scripture never teaches that the earth is water. The earth is IN the water, and the earth AND the water constitute the world. Never in all of scripture, never, no never, not once, is the world EVER alluded to as a sphere. I suggest we allow God the courtesy of His own engineering as the wise master builder, and pay attention to God’s detail in things. He created the alphabet doncha know, and He knows how to collate information far better than you or I.”
If you’d like to talk more about this topic let me know!
Thanks for the post, God Bless!
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Tkx for the visit. You are in excellent company with a good brother CitizenTom who also agrees with your observations, I just happen to go a little further in saying that yes, scripture does have much to say about science.
I am not ashamed to say that the modern heroes of science such as Degrass or Nye are not only enemies of the gospel, but promoters of science fiction.
Even the ancient Greeks knew that the earth was a sphere and had calculated roughly its radius and circumference, the size of the moon relative to the earth and its distance from the earth.
The bible is not a scientific book, but God’s revelation of himself to us.
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So you think God in His infinite wisdom would demand that His creatures (we the people) would be expected to be at the mercy of godless people to tell us where we live, when He has said most certainly that the earth, is fixed, IMMOVEABLE, and that the earth was created upon the floods?
I beg to differ as to scripture being absent of science. Of course there is science, and true science if we pay attention.
The ‘kinds’ of Genesis, as in the seed within itself, is more science than all of Darwins lying species.
God has given us the most valuable of tools, our senses, that speak to us perfectly of a motionless, stable world.
I have asked others with no answer, so here’s to you: can YOU walk on a basketball like an ant? Can YOU walk upside down on ceilings like insects?
Thus does common sense put to shame embarrassing theories and impossible assumptions which are a dime a dozen.
Tkx ior visiting though.
Some of the greatest scientists , and in fact the majority of western scientists up to the middle of the 20th century were Christian, so what’s your point? The fact that we now live in an atheistic culture has less to do with science than the sexual revolution of the 1960’s which has turned the culture against God in a big way.
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I am starting to despise the word ‘scientist.’
Do I, or you, need a ‘scientist’ to tell me same sex ‘marriage’ is not natural, as defined in the post above?
Do you need a ‘scientist’ to tell you that birds reproduce birds, whales produce whales and monkey produce monkeys?
Do you need a scientist and his PhD to tell you that what your eyes see or do not see are a mirage?
Are you aware that God Himself told His creatures (you, I, and anybody with an interest in truth) to be wary of SCIENCE FALSELY SO-CALLED?
Are you then aware that by default, God is correct when He says there is lying science, which has become the idolized god of the ages, a god which both Christians and atheists revere?
I’m pretty sure that when you ask ‘what’s my point,’ it is not because I am unclear, but that you do not like the implicatiions, because rest assured, I am rather clear.
But the better question, are you someone that has changed your blog site to remain anonymous?
Atheism is one thing. Science another. There is no need to conflate the two.
Sorry, you are mistaken as to the science of atheism. Atheism needs the 1,067mph unseen and improveable spinning globe ball, and the alleged 67,000mph absurd orbit, as atheism NEEDS the earth to be a mere accidental speck of cosmic serendipity, a meaningless life without design or purpose.
If you can’t see this, as demonstrated clearly in my post(s) then it is pointless to have a discussion that you have not even considered.
But maybe YOU have seen the earth move as much as one inch, or perhaps you have a friend who has seen this so-called wonderful feat?
Godless theories and assumptions are a dime a dozen. If you make the claim of bible believer, and you give God the courtesy of Engineering His construction, then why do you not agree with Him when He tells us over and over and over again, that there is a SCIENCE FALSELY SO CALLED, and then there is His obvious truth, that His earth is fixed firm, IMMOVEABLE, which logic, reason, common sense, and scripture, ALL prove.
So to repeat, the science of atheism has no welcome mat in my understanding of both scripture and science. You may want to consider such things.
God is quite capable of creating the world any way he wants to, and he is not limited by your human conceptions and senses and (lack of ) intelligence and understanding.
God has given us reason to work out things and discover the things he has made for us.
Science has given us the car you drive to work, the plane you take to go on vacation, in fact your very existence today is dependent on scientific discoveries.
You refuse to use the gift of reason God has given you.
Your argument is with God, not me. God gave us brains as well as our senses to confirm what our eye see.
I do not live in the Disneyesque world of animation and lying photoshop- maybe you do. Perhaps you have seen the earth move ONE INCH.
I emphasize this because the godless heroes of modern science are frauds of the highest order, and high priests of atheism.
But the gift of reason? Indeed, thankful that my reasoning skills agree with God and His word.
Whe you say: ” thankful that my reasoning skills agree with God and His word.”, you mean your own weak human reasoning and fallible interpretation of the word of God.
IMMOVEABLE – CANNOT BE MOVED- (So saith God and His word)
WATER? Seeks its own level.
Insects- Can walk upside down on ceilings.
Once more: your argument is with God’s explanation of His own creation. I appreciate His words far more than mine.
Seems you appreciate your words more than His. Seems obvious.
Your fixation with the senses does not help you.
Hebrews 12: “18 What you have come to is nothing known to the senses: not a blazing fire, or gloom or total darkness, or a storm;
19 or trumpet-blast or the sound of a voice speaking which made everyone that heard it beg that no more should be said to them.
20 They could not bear the order that was given: If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.
21 The whole scene was so terrible that Moses said, ‘I am afraid and trembling.’
22 But what you have come to is Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem where the millions of angels have gathered for the festival,
23 with the whole Church of first-born sons, enrolled as citizens of heaven. You have come to God himself, the supreme Judge, and to the spirits of the upright who have been made perfect;
Oh how I love the book of Hebrews, that wonderful revelation that proves the faithfulness of God in the midst of Israel’s rebellion, and the people of faith who secured their promises by trusting in the living God; which same word by the way proves the excellencies of Christ, and reminds us of God’s word to Moses and Joshua, who by the way, was the recipient of answered prayer by the standing still of the sun, TRUE SCIENCE, and not some wishy washy theory of infidel and lying scientists who pretend to know more than God in how to run His creation.
So thanks for scripture, the same scriptures which embarrass pseudo science, and expose Degrass and Nye as fools, and which proves God is true and every man a liar, UNLESS of course we agree with Him.
The cosmology of scripture is not harmonious with the assumptions of liars who say God is clueless as to the circuits of the sun and moon, and a STILL, immoveable earth, as it was founded upon the floods, according to the scriptures.
Because you have not considered that the word of God contains more true science than the libraries in the world, you are at a disadvantage, and I understand that, as most people have never thought how trains can traverse a basketball, upside down; as God does not ask us to believe things that do not have His blessing. Rest assured, a 67,000 orbiting alleged ball does not have His blessing, as it is pure imagination. Strange though, how atheists believe this, HAVING NEVER SEEN. Personally, my faith is in God and His promises.
God did not only give us our senses, he also gave us gave us reason to use it.
Atheists have no faith, and therein lies their sin. The fact that some, many, scientists are atheists does not necessarily invalidate their science, although it may invalidate their conclusions, if those are merely attempts to disprove God, in which case those conclusions are not grounded in reason but in prejudice or hatred.
In not sure why you are being intentionally stubborn. I have proved that not only do atheists have faith, it is also a faith in unprovable science that far too many Christians have accepted as well, for the sole purpose of APPEARING ENLIGHTENED.
I bring you facts, logic, reason, scripture, God’s creation, His word regarding His creation, yet, all you bring are lame accusations of MY ignorance.
You sir, are proving with every comment, that atheistic science has clouded your judgment.
Not one atheist has seen the earth move, orbit, spin, yet BELIEVES. This is faith. Lousy faith, but faith, the very opposite of Gods revelation which good people accept.
Next thing you will try to preach is that Mary was sinless……are you seeing the hole you dig when scripture is not your guide?
You appear to me to be stubbornly stuck where you are, and are yet to bring logic and reason into this debate.
If you do not agree that Mary is sinless it is because you believe in sola scriptura, i.e personal interpretation of scripture which makes every believer a pope and church council at the same time.
By the way that is also why you have such whacky ideas about science.
What I believe is not novel, nor did I dream this up on my own.
For thousands of years, men believed and knew the earth was stationary, not because they lacked tools or wisdom, but because it was correct.
Nature, scripture, science all agree. It was only until such time as men ‘devised their own schemes,’ and were not happy with God’s revelation of His own creation, did they create their own ‘THEORIES,’ which were pure unfounded ASSUMPTIONS not founded in fact, science, or scripture.
You are not alone in following the many who while professing to be wise, they became fools. You are on the wrong side of history, scripture, and science.
And it appears I was also correct about your ‘feelings’ about Mary. Perhaps you never heard of JAEL who pounded a spike through a mans skull, who was stated by scripture as BLESSED IS SHE ABOVE WOMEN, while Mary was BLESSED AMONG WOMEN.
I pay attention to such detail, and yes, scripture is much wiser than you or I, and I make no apology while you are apparently embarrassed.
This is why you can’t see straight. If Mary was sinless, she could have been the savior. Perish the thought. I challenge you to read my five part series on Mary and scripture. Just search in the bar.
It would be pointless I realise, to debate with you about Mary, Your mind is closed shut, and reason has no place in it.
Thank you for the compliment WATS- you may recall that God ‘shut Noah in the ark,’ preserved entirely from the ensuing deluge. He was safe.
I therefore am just as safe as him, since I am staying with the ‘close minded’ promises of God, free from the drippings of leaky faucets.
I am sorry for you that you elevate nans opinions, even they of Pope’s, above God’s word, which is magnified above His own name, according to the scriptures.
So your view of a closed mind, is actually a fine commendation to the resoluteness of God’s word.
What you call “God’s Word” is actually only your fallible interpretation of it.
As is plain to you, you represent a tiny minority in your views, enabled by sola scriptura and the perspicuity of scripture, and the bulk of your fellow protestants do not agree with you on this, nor do they agree among themselves on a myriad of other issues.
Is this the return of SoM? lol
I think you have ‘interpretation’ confused with the need for understanding dreams. There is no interpretation needed when we read ALL have sinned…..
There are NONE righteous, no not one. This includes Jael, Mary, Joseph, the baptist, you, I, take your pick.
Do you need the help of Daniel to understand the writing of the wall in plain English?
Here ya go, since you are pretending to be difficult. One of five. Spent a lot of time putting these together, after a lifetime of consideration. Don’t be so quick to write off that which you mock, as some traditions are stubborn masters.
Matthew 3:5 “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does that mean people from every corner of Judea and of the Jordan went out to Jesus?
1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? We know that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying.
Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”Yet, Joseph was a just man (Mt 1:19), John the Baptist’s parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were declared righteous (Luke 1:19), and Psalm 14 goes on to speak of “the company of the righteous” in verse 5 while Psalm 15 references those who walk blamelessly and do what is right..
Paul would agree that infants and those who are mentally deficient cannot sin personally—two additional exceptions to the concept of “all” having sinned.
In Romans 3 Paul is comparing Jews and Greeks (Gentiles). What Paul is saying is that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God, not that there are no exceptions to the rule.
Instead of addressing your concerns one by one, which based on your own words thus far, would prove fruitless since you do not hold God’s word in esteem, UNLESS it agrees with your hierarchy,
I suggest you read all five posts I referred to you, in order, then you may be in a better position to grasp the consistencies of scripture.
I do not hold God’s word in esteem? Where did you get that from?
What I do not hold in esteem is your fallible interpretation of scripture, as I have shown to you above.
Hi John, I’m pretty sure that our paths crossed a couple of years ago. Having taken the time to read through some of your posts and comments, the question you recently asked me on my blog, which I declined to respond to, now makes more sense to me. Here is a link that I would appreciate your opinion on. https://apologeticspress.org/APPubPage.aspx?pub=1&issue=1250&flipper=1
To be candid with you, I really don’t know what to make of you. You’re obviously intelligent, dripping with sarcasm and definitely not prone to making apologies. I would assume that you’re not a fan of Hugh Ross. It must be lonely in your corner. The primary characteristic that you seem to have plenty of is pride and candidly that bothers me. Considering that you indicate that you love God’s Word, I’m curious why it doesn’t bother you. I’m not trying to be a smart ass, it’s a sincere question.
Tkx for the visit- do know that my observation to you in the form of a question was initiated by your own using of the word ‘whirling,’ and simply asked if u considered otherwise.
No pride in asking I’m pretty sure. As to sarcasm, absolutely, when needed, and many believers appreciate it.
Surely u know we are not cookie cutters- and have liberty to disagree.
I do know the fellow u cited and it should concern you that he KNOWS the age of the earth, as well as creation; whereas I have said many times I do not know.’
Food for thought regarding the pride thing.
Thanks for the response John, maybe we can talk again some time.
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Two things come to mind here, Mary being sin free only works for me if she is sin free as we are sin free, through the imparted and imputed grace of Jesus Christ. If Jesus is the Son of Man,which He called Himself frequently, then He came through a long line of fallen men, a truth carefully preserved and documented in all those begats in the bible. Being the Son of David makes no sense if God first felt the need to completely wipe clean the bloodline, BEFORE making Himself very small and curling up in Mary.
And second, it actually takes a great deal of intellectual humility to ponder flat earth ideas, and not pride at all. One problem with pride and seeking the favor and approval of man is that first you must accept the science of the day, only because you fear being labeled a flathead. Next you must retract any belief in a six day creation, least you be labeled a creationist. We soon arrive at denying the existence of talking donkeys and burning bushes, those things just being metaphors, symbolism, miracles all having a perfectly reasonable explanation. After all, we don’t want to give any indication of being delusional or weird or anything. Eventually we arrive at how the Resurrection itself is not a literal truth but just a symbolic allegory and many other paths can lead to God just as well, too.
And that is how we soon arrive at Christians pointing fingers of accusation against their own brothers and sisters as if to say, “What? You don’t align your beliefs with the dominant atheist narrative of the day??” An atheist narrative that has flat out declared it is not really interested in truth and science so much as it is interested in completely dismantling Christianity.
So, if you want my apologetics truth which of course people seldom do, I ain’t apologizing for nothing. 🙂
I hate when you are moderated. No clue why.
Love your point about Mary being sinless if only according to the scriptures. Big amen there.
Your understanding of the inner and inter connected themes of truth is sooo good- God’s word is consistent and verifiable in so many ways.
Dare we be embarrassed at a talking donkey, when he made more sense than some of us. Lol
I agree too msB, that while some have a ministry of policemen toward believers, that is not mine, so yeah, good idea to allow each other their own fields of operation.
Let me repeat: your comment here is warm and thoughtful, and no apology necessary. 😊
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Sorry I missed your comment on Mary. You say: “Mary being sin free only works for me if she is sin free as we are sin free, through the imparted and imputed grace of Jesus Christ.”
In Catholic teaching, Mary is sinless only “through the imparted and imputed grace of Jesus Christ.” It is not of her own doing, by something she has done for God, but purely by God’s grace.
As the angel Gabriel says to her in Luke 1:28 “ ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you.’” And as Mary herself says in Luke 1:49 “49 for the Almighty has done great things for me. “
We venerate Mary for what God has done for her, not for what she has done for God.
Luke 1:28 “28 He went in and said to her, ‘Rejoice, you who enjoy God’s favour! The Lord is with you”. This is alternatively translated as “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.”
The Greek word used here for grace is “Kecharitomene” using the perfect passive participle, denoting the continuance of a completed action, a completed action with a permanent result, i.e completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace. That denotes freedom from sin.
To receive Jesus, who is God, in her womb, Mary must have been without sin. According to Revelation, nothing unclean may enter heaven: Rev 21:27 “27 Nothing unclean may come into it:”. Why? Because God is so holy that anyone who is sinful cannot be in his presence. And so it is with Mary.
Luke 1:35 “35 The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow.”
When Luke says ‘the power of the most high will “overshadow” you’ he is using the same word used in the old testament for the glory of God “overshadowing” the tabernacle where the Ark of the Covenant was.
When Moses had finished making the Ark and the tabernacle, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
Ex 40:34-35 “34 The cloud then covered the Tent of Meeting and the glory of Yahweh filled the Dwelling.
35 Moses could not enter the Tent of Meeting, since the cloud stayed over it and the glory of Yahweh filled the Dwelling.”
The verb “to cover” or “overshadow” and the “cloud” in the old testament represents the presence and glory of God. God’s presence “overshadowed” the Ark and the tabernacle.
The Greek word for “overshadow” (ἐπισκιάζω or episkiazein) in Exodus 40 is used of the presence of God overshadowing the Ark. The same Shekinah glory cloud also filled the Temple of Solomon (2 Chron 7:1-3).
The very same Greek word for “overshadow” is used by Gabriel when he tells Mary that the Holy Spirit will overshadow her. Moses, though chosen by God to lead his people was still a sinful man, and could not approach, as God’s presence filled the tabernacle. Mary had to be without sin to hold Jesus, who is God, in her womb.
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See how far you have strayed? Look again at the title of the post, and the post itself, you have taken this far off course, yet you have people who are patient with you.
5 installments I pointed you to, to keep you busy in careful consideration for some time- yet you avoid what can guide you.
If it pleases her , ib22 is free to do as she will, but rest assured you are in the wrong zip code, if you think I will side with Pope Larry over God’s word….
The argument is not between the pope and you, we are talking about your fallible interpretation of scripture.
My interpretation of scripture is certainly fallible, but what is not fallible is the authority of the Holy Spirit and His ability to lead us to the truth. There are many Catholics who do not really trust in Him, who feel as if there must be a human intermediary least people go astray. I myself don’t have any personal schism with Catholics, I believe many are very good Christ followers, but I simply cannot and will not replace the Holy Spirit with “the church.”
And intentional or not, the concept of the immaculate conception has erased the significance of biblical bloodlines, has been distorted and perverted leading to many tragic misconceptions about women being permanently sinful and unclean, and has created distance between us and a Holy God, distance and separation which Jesus actually came to Earth to end.
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I’m glad you mentioned this in answer to Water msB- There are many many good hearts in various denominations, and God is far more tolerant of people’s misunderstandings for whatever reasons; also, there are many wolves in sheeps clothing who love nothing more than to ransack God’s lamb’s.
And the good Shepherd ‘leads us’ to Him, to safety, and to see other sheep of other folds. Grace is a big deal.
Well said too bout the Conception- has been a snare to many- as you said previously, the lineage kind of sets the table
(just saw post bout sister, etc……….).
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We all agree that the Holy Spirit is God and therefore infallible. It is a Christian’s personal interpretation which is infallible.
Catholics certainly do not replace the Holy Spirit (God) with the church. Jesus founded the church and promised to be with it till the end of time. He is the head of the church and we are the body of Christ.
This idea that the immaculate conception has erased the biblical bloodlines is bizarre.
So is this idea that women are permanently sinful and unclean. They are no more unclean or sinful than men.
Could you elaborate on those two points so I can understand what you mean?
Well, I think we started this discussion because you told Colorstorm that sola scriptura and denying the immaculate conception, “… is also why you have such whacky ideas about science.”
Considering there are a whole lot of Catholics running about who seem to believe immaculate conception is about how Jesus Himself was conceived, sex free, since the sex act itself is thought to be what makes women unclean, unclean and prone to pass down original sin to their offspring. Therefore we can pretty clearly state that Catholic doctrine is no protection against what you would call, “whacky ideas.”
I never said that ” denying the immaculate conception” was why ColorStorm had such “whacky ideas about science.”
It is clear from Luke 1 that Mary conceived Jesus through the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:34-35 “34 Mary said to the angel, ‘But how can this come about, since I have no knowledge of man?’
35 The angel answered, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God.”
The sex act is not thought to be what makes a woman unclean. Original sin, which man inherits through Adam and Eve, is passed down to their descendants by generation. both through the man and the woman. There is nothing unclean about the sex act, it is man’s innate concupiscence that is the problem. Man brings this concupiscence into the sex act, not the sex act to man.
Water, didn’t you say, ” If you do not agree that Mary is sinless it is because you believe in sola scriptura, i.e personal interpretation of scripture which makes every believer a pope and church council at the same time. By the way that is also why you have such whacky ideas about science.”
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What this means is that it is sola scriptura which leads ColorStorm not to agree that Mary is sinless, and it is sola scriptura which gives ColorStorm such whacky ideas about science.
Ah the sharp eyed lady sets the record straight.
And we have to remember too, that the alleged I-Conception refers to HERS – not Her giving birth- this is where one lands when scripture is avoided and feelings rule the day.
That somehow she was mistaken when she said ‘my soul doth rejoice in God my Saviour,’ words hardly necessary if she was elevated to Saviour status because of her own sinlessness.
Would to God we pay attention to scripture and Truth.
Perhaps Water here should read again what holy men of God say when Standing before Deity: woe is me- holy holy holy-
Scripture never presents Mary as a godldess- a title she would despise even herself- but heck- I only wrote 5 posts about this- if water would read…..
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You’ve brought up some very good points with this post, Colorstorm. What we are discussing is actually authority and where it comes from. Is it going to be the pope, culture, human reason, scientism, or the bible?
I too put my trust in the bible and in the Holy Spirit’s guidance in understanding it. I also think it is filled with many references to science and there is a lot of revelation to be found there. It’s only in the modern world that we have separated science from faith, religion from secularism, as if you must chose between one or the other. We’ve pretty much tried to kick God Himself out of His creation.
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You are quite right that atheists attempt to kick God out of his creation. As you say, faith and reason go together, and in scripture we will find some science – if only we use our reason -, and as well some history, some cultural information, etc.
Where we differ is about authority. You say that it resides in the believer. We can see where that leads. Thousands of Protestant denominations, to say nothing of many non denominational churches and probably millions of lonesome rangers who make up their doctrine as they go. More and more congregations acrimoniously splitting up over differing beliefs, each side convinced that the Holy Spirit is on their side.
Jesus passed his authority to the one church he founded, and he said he would be with it till the end of time, and so it will be.
It would be safe to say ms that Peter himself would curl in his grave if he saw the misplaced infatuation that ‘religious people’ have afforded and rewarded mere mortals.
By whose authority do you do these things? was a loaded question put to the Lord to try to trap Him.
One thing was certain. It was not the figmented authority of Mary, Darwin, Nye, of even Paul the apostle.
People of God KNOW wherein lies ultimate Authority, and bless God for it.
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Mary is not a goddess, she is certainly not elevated to saviour status, Jesus is the only saviour of all men, and Mary’s saviour is Jesus. By God’s grace only is Mary’s conception immaculate. We adore Jesus as God, we venerate Mary as a creature highly graced by God in order to carry Jesus – God himself – in her womb.
Hebrews 13:7 “7 Remember your leaders, who preached the word of God to you, and as you reflect on the outcome of their lives, take their faith as your model.”
Luke 1:48 “Yes, from now onwards all generations will call me blessed,”
One way to describe the immaculate conception of Mary is to look at a child who cannot swim being saved from the water. So if a child is drowning in the river and someone swims to save him, we say that he was saved from drowning.
In the same way if a child is caught before he falls into the river, he is said to have been saved from drowning.
In our case, we have fallen in the river, – and are contaminated by original sin, whreas in Mary’s case she was protected from falling into the water and saved from original sin, all through the merits of Jesus Christ who suffered and died for her on the cross.
I hope this makes it easier for you to understand.
It is pointless to host your incessant focus on that which scripture demands we look away from.
Apparently, I know more of your catholic doctrine than do you- because I pointed out Jael was blessed ABOVE women, whereas our friend Mary was blessed AMONG women-
If you cant see God’s wisdom in this……….
Furthermore, your appeal to emotion regarding a good woman, (Mary) cannot hold up to the apostle Paul’s (through God’s favor of course) scrutiny of ALL mankind, Christ apart………..
I suggest you read Alexander Hislops ‘Babylon,” or Sir Robert Andersons ‘the buddha of Christendom,’ which both carefully dismantle just about everything you have said.
I have been careful to maintain the focus on science here, atheism, and sorry to say, you have taken off in a direction that is pretty much irrelevant.
A few of us here have tried to steer you back on course, but I hope you find solace in scripture and God alone, as opposed to lousy science and the veneration of the created.
(You may want to write your own posts on Mary and how she maybe is responsible for holding up the spinning ball. just saying) )
Your worldview prevents you from seeing the truth or even considering it. Sad to see.
Sure thing water.
I need not defend one word I’ve said or one sentence written.
EDIT: Water, this nonsense of yours must stop- I pointed u to five posts regarding a topic that you willingly refuse to see. You are still pushing this:
‘Jael is a type of Mary, who is
prophesised in Genesis 3:15.’
Your insistence of the veneration of Mary has not the approval of God, the apostle Paul, Peter, the scriptures, nor Mary herself.
You have indoctrination on your side, whereas I have God’s entire counsel, which is above His own name.
It is both apparent and obvious that you are happy in catechisms, fine go for it, but please cease from promoting such perverted views that are so far from sound doctrine that they hardly need addressed.
Again, I have neither the time nor inclination to explain what you refuse to see.