Read a quip by a fella who sincerely (well maybe a feigned sincerity) asked if historians of the Christian persuasion can possibly be honest by promoting the biblical narrative. Here it is.
Question: Can a biblical historian be thoroughly objective as a Christian and retain their integrity?
Ha! Perhaps this is the better question:
Does the atheist have an ounce of INTEGRITY when sitting in judgement of God and scripture?
Thus the question posed regarding historians is riddled with contradiction, and further reveals the deceptive traits in promoting ‘errors’ in the only reliable historical account of man’s origins, his progress, his regress, and his future.
But there is more. It is not so much that the atheist has issues with Joshua, trumpets, King Darius, Daniel, dreams, Mordecai, Haman, Xerxes, Esther, the hanging gardens, the Red Sea, The Tigris and Euphrates, Seth, Enos, Methuselah, King David, Shem, Japheth, Ararat, (all historical certainties doncha know) but that specifically, the atheist cannot tolerate the scorching revelation what scripture reveals about HIMSELF. This is the furnace of truth, this is the crucible that tests the reader of Gods word, liars, thieves, and all criminals will do anything to try to break the mirror of truth, aka, the holy bible. Sorry, no can do.
Sure many have tried, many fabrications of their own delusions, large erasers employed, but God’s word stands, like the armor it is, it reveals EVERY assault against it, and remains untarnished, without a dent or a speck of rust. The historical record remains just as resolute as the sun shining in its strength and all misfits may as well waste their time trying to find fault with him too.
But what pray tell can the atheist teach us regarding this so-called integrity that he holds? Integrity is the foundation of a building, it is what holds up everything above it, and without this foundation, the building falls. While being not seen, it is the root for everything built upon it. No wonder the atheist would destroy the root, that which holds mankind to the only standard, yet the atheist boasts of integrity that he possibly cannot have? Please.
And THIS is the state of mind of all antagonists of scripture. A man may not like what scripture presents as history; he may not like the acts of men and the responses by God, but he cannot argue against the truth of what scripture so accurately says, about HIM.
And in this brutal assessment of the heart of man, the atheist has eyes clouded by a lousy and lying frame of reference, just as God’s word explains, and men revolt and despise such authority, and the more one revels in rebellion, the greater the antagonism toward God, scripture, and good people of faith, resulting in such blatant stupidity as: Can a Christian keep his integrity by believing the historical narrative of scripture?
Newsflash. The historical narrative of scripture is the ONLY source that can be trusted entirely. It’s God’s word after all. He owns all copyrights, just like the KJV 1611. Go ahead and copy it and pass it around. 😉
(ps- I do not apologize for such direct words/ Is my language strong? Nope. Not strong enough. Read the book of Jude lately or the 1st of Romans?)
The Lions Den 
You do me too much honour re-blogging. And your marvelous post only serves to confirm what those who comment – almost all former Christians – at my spot have stated.,
Thanks again.
Regards
Ark
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Sure no problem, at least we can agree that the US girls team served up punishing goals and solid defense to win it all.
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Indeed! They played like champs. Perhaps Jill Ellis could loan a few of her players to the men’s team?
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And let’s not forget, to be fair, if it were not for the spectacular saves of the Dutch goalie, the results would have been far worse.
It was a minor victory though for them, keeping the US at nil @ halftime. They can at least hold their heads up.
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Reblogged this on For Such A Time As This.
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Reblogged this on moreinkpleaseblog and commented:
Well stated…Thank yu
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Excellent post!
Atheists can understand what the Bible says, but once they accept it as true they can no longer remain Atheists. Since Atheists so much congratulate themselves for being Atheists (their intelligence, their courage, their natural right to rule over the superstitious,….), they have a serious bias against the Bible. Yet the Bible is part of the historical record. Every bit of evidence we have indicates the Bible is well preserved and startlingly accurate. When scholar apply the same standards to the Bible that they apply to other historical documents, we end up believing Jesus Christ is God.
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The ‘same standard’ leads to your final observation.
Love that.
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Except that it isn’t, which is why once Christians realise this they often deconvert.
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Really not interested in juvenile arguments.
Yes it is!
No it isn’t!
Yes it is!
No it isn’t!
Yes it is!
No it isn’t!
And so it goes until one side realizes the futility.
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You were interested enough to post your somewhat asinine reply, Tom.
And the search for truth is not juvenile, but to run from it is not only juvenile but cowardly.
Rather than always trying to hand wave with condescending remarks, maybe it’s time you were honest enough to follow where evidence leads?
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This isn’t that complicated. If you are not going to make a conterargument — if you are just going to issue a denial — you have not offered anything worthy of discussion. You have just had a hissyfit.
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Smile.
Where would you like to start? Genesis?
The HGP has refuted any claim that Adam and Eve are the progenitors of the human race.
EDIT TWO CENTS (This topic has been addressed on this very blog. Mr Collins will one day admit his errors, and agree that Mr and Mrs Adam were actual and factual, thus proving once again every word and Truth of Genesis.
But it is telling that otherwise you have no use for Christians such as Collins; especially when he easily speaks of the resurrection from the dead.)
And the NT ….
Based on known evidence, and agree upon by the consensus of modern day historians and biblical scholars, (EDIT: you mean modern day salespeople who don’t know Genesis from Revolution) the long ending of gMark is a forgery and there are three known versions of the long ending. The writer of gMatthew used gMark as a template, including around 600 verses lifted directly from gMark, some almost verbatim, and merely added to it, with such nonsense as the rising of the dead saints at the time of the crucifixion.
This means that in the original gospel, g Mark, there were no Resurrection appearances. (EDIT: 10 sighs and a dozen head slaps. Nooooo, there are no such things as false apostles huh?)
Anything else you would like to discuss, Tom?
Now you have the opportunity to offer a counter-argument.
EDIT: CTom actually enjoys my colorful inserts)
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HGP has done what? I don’t think HGP has resolved that question. Still being debated.
There are also folks who think mitochondrial DNA studies demonstrate we all have a common female ancestor. Such studies cannot address the male side of our heritage.
Anyway, I never have looked into any of these studies in much detail. I expect the math for those studies is way over my head. I also think it extremely difficult to validate such studies. I just put them into the category of “that’s interesting”.
The original manuscripts are long gone, but the Old and New Testaments contain relatively few copying errors. That is actually quite remarkable. Clerics diligently copied the documents, but they rarely messed with them. We know that because of the high degree of agreement between copies from all around the world. Therefore, we just have a few sections that people wonder about like the end of Mark or the story of the adulterous woman that Jesus forgave, and it is no secret Christians wonder about these sections.
What do we make of the differences that do exist? Well, we cannot entirely explain them, but they don’t change doctrine. So they don’t seem to much matter. It just proves the original manuscripts, not the copies we make (and the translations), were divinely inspired. So some human error was inevitable so we have to thank God for the fact there was so little.
Bottomline: If we want to understand the Bible, we had better read the whole thing and compare translations. Otherwise, we risk missing the overall message.
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The HGP has flatly refuted any notion that we come from an original breeding pair as per the bible tale. This is fact. No such bottleneck could possibly exist. (EDITORS VERDICT TO EMPHASIZE EARLY FOR THE SAKE OF NEWCOMERS TO THIS THREAD: Collins supposed ‘results’ are hilarious, I don’t care how many PhD’s, STP,s BVD’s he has after his name. How the Creator must laugh at the conclusions of men , as if God Himself cannot maintain His own accounting of life. Of course ADAM lived. God created him, and He told us exactly by leaving us a genealogical record. Period.)
Do your homework, Tom.
Copying erroneous text doesnpt suddenly magic any more veracity into what was written in the originals whether there are a thousand exact copies of a million, any more than millions of copies of a JK Rowling book will make it any more factual..
There is no wonder about the long ending of gMark. Well, long endings, it is an interpolation – a fraudulent addition which gMatthew then incorporated into his fleshed out version, that included such nonsense as the Virgin Birth narrative, lifted from Isaiah 7:14, and the silly tale of Saints rising from their graves, and which already contained 600 (EDIT CANT RESIST: This is precisely why men must search hell or high water to try to scrap scripture. So called silly-tales must be met with silly crimes. Scripture stands alone and the voice of truth itself cries through all dirty hands who try to dismiss it, I tire of all the ‘critics’ who are clueless) erses lifted from gMark – some almost verbatim.
Error is not the same as intentional fraud.
It is obvious to anyone prepared to be totally honest that the gospels were :
a) Written for specific audiences
b) Thus, the story developed as each gospel came into being.
c) Were unlikely originally meant to be a collection.
Bottom line, scholars have been reading the whole thing for centuries and this is how they know these things.
Much like the virgin birth, the resurrection appearances were a later addition to Christian doctrine.
It was simply an invention by whoever wrote gMatthew.
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It seems to me you have unsubstantiated assertions confused with fact. Our feelings about something are not facts.
I didn’t come to the point where I believe the Bible because I wanted to do so. I did not want to believe the Bible. It seemed like an absurd nuisance. God died on a cross for sinners?!!!!!!!!! What kind of God would do that?
When the Bible requires me to do something I don’t want to do, that is highly inconvenient. That is why Atheism and Agnosticism are so popular.
I came to believe the Bible because the Gospels and the rest of it explain the great puzzle we call Life. It was only after that that, after I realized the Bible presents facts we need and fits and explains the facts we already have that I began to see the possibility that I too need a Savior.
Here is a sample. We know Jesus lived. We know that His apostles and disciples (people who knew Him or knew people who knew Him) wrote the New Testament within decades after His resurrection. We know the Jews and the Roman Empire persecuted the Christians, martyring millions. Yet the Roman Empire slowly became Christian because the people at the risk of their lives believed the testimony of the Christians.
The people of the Roman Empire saw at least two things:
1. Solid answers to the big questions: –Why am I here?
–What is right and wrong?
–What brings me meaning
–What happens to a human being when I die?
2. A God who loves us.
For thousands of years people have carefully studied the Bible. Each generation tries, but we can’t find anything wrong with it. You think you are going to do so now. LOL! You are pissing into the wind.
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The bible presents no facts whatsoever pertaining to the foundational tenets of your religion. None.
And I challenge you to present a single one.
There is no evidence for the character Jesus of Nazareth as depicted in the gospels. Not A Thing.
Thee is no evidence who wrote the gospels and as I pointed out, gMatthew is basically rewrite of g Mark with nonsensical embellishments (Virgin Birth, raising of the saints etc.
If you do things because the bible tells you so then you are immoral, and hypocritical as there are a myriad things the bible says you should do that you patently don’t.
There is everything wrong with the bible in the way you interpret it.
That you feel it is wrong is evidence of your indoctrination.
The real question is WHY do you believe it when I have already pointed out some of the major acknowledged errors/interpolation(forgery) ?
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ark/doug
Listen to me in my soft spoken but clear language, and answer if you can:
Being familiar with you and your cadre of loyal opposition to scripture; having had endless conversations with you regarding every topic under the sun, you cry for ‘evidence’ or ‘proof’ that God’s word is as good as God Himself; after presenting scripture as the ONLY answer to thedeep issues of life, what pray tell, WHAT EVIDENCE do you demand other than scripture itself, which deftly and perfectly portrays the origin of life, mans history, God’s response to the good creation He made, and mans destiny, complete with scriptures accurate assessment of YOU.
No other source material on earth is comparable to God’s word, and the fact is, you know it, the same way CTom and I know it.
You may want to actually read the word of God, unaided and filtered by such goons as DeGrasse and Dawkins, who collectively, expose their dunce caps when speaking of God’s word and artificial science.
Sorry, but you will never make inroads on this blog, but you should consider WHY your commentary is not trashed; some believers are fearless in the face of such blatant disrespect of God’s word.
Welcome to the Lion’s Den, where we spit out the useless bones. God’s word needs no defense, so we tell it as it is, without compromise or embarrassment.
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I have read the bible thanks. I have told you this on numerous occasions.
The bible is a human composition and its errors across almost all disciplines is testament to this. And this is without even touching the forgeries etc.
Evidence?
You are making the claims, so the onus is on you to present the evidence that demonstrates the veracity.
Fearless they may be, but perhaps they may at least feel inclined to investigate such things as the history of the gospels and the Human Genome Project without an evangelical filter?
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In a court of law ark, your case would have been dismissed long ago. Here you have the clay pot (you) making claim against the Potter (God).
I have clearly demonstrated that Collins is dead wrong; I don’t care how ‘educated’ he is.
Btw, without the aid of the crippling effect of the many voices on-line, people would still be happy in the scriptures alone, but nooooooo, they need the ‘voices’ of advanced learning to tell them Joshua never lived, King Solomon did not build a temple, Daniel never interpreted kings dreams…………etc. Aah yes, how mankind loves to lend an ear to ‘whispers.’
Do you see the self tightened noose employed by fools who must cast God out of His creation? Clear as a bell to me.
As to the ‘evidence’ you demand, it is you sir who must cite the ‘evidence’ that will convince you, because you have gone on record saying ‘there is no evidence.’
The ‘evidence’ is free for all. It’s called life. Its called nature. Its revealed in blood, water, trees, clouds, stars, the sun, the moon, its revealed like a clock minute by minute, second by second.
And of course the scriptures confirm that what I am reporting is true. But please do not make the mistake that my (our) confidence is arrogance.
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I have clearly demonstrated that Collins is dead wrong;
You have demonstrated no such thing.
And Collins is not a lone voice. There are thousands of geneticists involved. And you know very well that Collins is a Christian …. just like you.
As to the ‘evidence’ you demand, it is you sir who must cite the ‘evidence’ that will convince you,
I need to cite no such thing.
Did you make such a demand of your god? No, of course not. So I am sure Yahweh will know exactly what evidence will suffice should he choose to communicate it.
The scriptures merely confirm they were written by fearful Bronze Aid men.
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No foundational tenets? We are made in the image of God. Seems kind of important.
Millions of martyrs, but no evidence?
You say I am immoral, and hypocritical for obeying the Bible. Based upon what truths? Your own? Who cares but you?
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I asked for evidence not claims. Anyone can make a claim- Can you support it without resorting to circular arguments?
Doing things because the bible says so is immoral. People were once stoned to death because it says so in the bible.
Witches also were burned. (EDIT/ ColorStorm sez: This has been gone over a thousand times. Were YOU told to burn a witch? Was I? No. Were you told to walk around Jericho seven times? Was I? No. Were you told to make a tomb sure by sealing? Was I? No. Good people who are inclined to understand things never fear scripture. The key to the Old Testament is knowing that God chose ONE nation to reveal Himself to the world. Like it or not, the state
of Israel is a killer to infidelity. God keeps His word doncha know.) And there is also guilt by omission if you feel so strongly about the ”Word of God”
Millions of martyrs?You’ll have to provide evidence for this claim. Furthermore, the only thing this is evidence of is how humans can beleive something on bad evidence …. or no evidence at all.
9/11 is evidence of how people can be led to beleive nonsense and then perpetuate atrocities.
And Christianity is replete woth its own brand of horrors.
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We have played the evidence game before. You just make endless demands.
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My ”demands” are only responses to your assertions of the veracity of your claims.
Simply citing the bible is merely an appeal to an authority without a single thing to support it.
When you do provide genuine evidence, we can have a meaningful discussion.
Until then … all you have is faith.
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The genuine evidence is life, and the scriptures confirm what we already know.
I suggest u study the unique place of man on this earth, while your gorilla friends struggle to tie their shoes.
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Life is evidence of evolution.
Which ”gorilla friends” would these be , John?
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Life is evidence of the Giver of life. Period.
Game. Set. Match. No devil above or below can contradict what is true. Have a nice day.
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There is no evidence of a creator.
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And with this we can agree that it may be beneficial for you to cease posting on this thread.
But plz know that my good friend ib22 has carried this theme even further on her newest post.
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I know and she refuses to allow my comment out of moderation.
Christians fear evidence.
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Yeah sure thing- maybe she, like myself, are otherwise engaged and can’t babysit the toobz-
Tell the truth, don’t my comments occasionally sit until you return from camera work or whatever-
That said- the good lady is so fair minded and articulate that u should pay attention to her replies.
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It is out of moderation. Come across and join the party.
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Re your unsubstantiated claims assertion.
I would provide links but John does not allow them.
The Human Genome Project is easy enough to find.
(EDIT: Surely the discriminating reader can understand that ‘link pong’ is a game I do not enjoy) Can’t trust them all, viruses, baggage, one link requires a thousand more, ads, etc etc. 😉
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I have looked at links. Some are
, as your editor observed, rabbit holes.
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Not secular ones for the Human Genome Project, obviously.
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I only looked at both.
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Then you obviously reject the scientific evidence.
Not that this a surprise, of course.
No doubt all those thousands of scientists/geneticist, including fellow Christians like Collins must have been led by Satan, I suppose?
The Devil in the detail, yes?
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Led by the devil? No, people are led by their own bias. The devil is much more clever than to waste his time with the obvious.
But scientists? Ha! How many so called professionals cannot right today’s weather forecast having all the latest tech at their disposal?
ZERO per cent chance of rain yesterday. It poured all day. Do u get it now? Do u not see how u place your faith in the wells without water masquerading as intellect in which also, Collins is guilty of promoting things in which he is clueless?
But your bigger concern should be the resurrection from the dead, which Collins has enough sense to believe.
Quite the dilemma for u eh, how u have to select what part of a person is useful.
(I suggest u get a new avatar too, your identity has taken a severe hit)
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Oh,I am fully aware of Collins shoe- horning his Christianity into his scientific stance. Or is it the other way around?
Compartmentalism is what it is.
It is how all such Christians deal with the obvious contradictions to the scientific evidence.
Indoctrination at work again.
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Ark- saw a documentary recently on the wonders beneath the oceans- the same glorious consistency that is revealed by winged creatures- yet neither ‘kinds’ of life intrude into each other m’s field of operation, per the Creator.
Surely u know by now that if something is true, not only am I for it, but I will promote it.
I enjoy true science, and I despise false science.
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Yet you deny the findings of the
HGP and you deny evolution.
That says you are willfully ignorant.
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What I am saying is that God cannot be contained in a Petrie dish. What will u then say when Collins comes clean and admits his math was wrong- that his calculations were incorrect- that scripture is accurate and true/ just as it is.
Will that then make u a believer once he offers a professional apology and doesn’t care what academia thinks of him?
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Again, it is not just HIS math. There were many, many scientists working on this project. Collins was the head of it.
The evidence stands.
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Glad u think so. Today’s alleged ‘evidence’ regarding weakness in the text of scripture, will be shown to be true tomorrow.
God’s word stands resolute against the broken abacuses of men.
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So are you also saying the tale of Noah and the Flood is historical fact and the evidence is wrong?
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How many times, in how many places, have I consistently and unapologetically said the account in Genesis is true, and attested by people far more honorable than you and I.
In addition, God made a covenant with mankind- that HE would keep His word- that the waters above (in the which the clouds are a gentle reminder) and the waters below would never again envelop the world.
Love that rainbow too.
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Yes you have said this more times than I care to recall. But even if you chant it a million times or more it doesn’t make it correct. And the evidence tells us.
I am beginning to think that you are simply engaging in one monumental wind-up after all. Surely no one in their right mind can be as
dense as you portray yourself to be?
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If I were you, I would really consider just exactly how much water there is in the world.
And by the way, earth and the world are not twins. They are not interchangeable. Any gardener and seaman know the difference.
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Now you are back to behaving like an idiot.
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Right, an idiot telling you that the works is 3/4 % water as a reminder.
I just handed you true science: things testable and repeatable, not even to mention observable- it’s you who has an issue with water, not me.
Any idea WHERE all that water came from, those fountains of the great deep which scripture so illustriously presents?
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Noah’s Flood is a myth. Period.
Please give it up John you are once more beginning to embarrass yourself.
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Then we are done here today yes. I’ll just pitch my tent with He who is the Truth who also spoke of the deluge as a historical certainty.
Seems the word of the week has been ‘history’ in many places. Yeah, history, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
And scripture neither lies nor fails. Bye now.
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So Collins is right about HGP and Adam, but wrong about Christianity? We have to respect his judgement on one matter and not the other? Or is it your judgement we are really talking about?
When I determine what is Truth I try to be modest about it. Should I be modest, or should I follow your example?
I think I should accept the consequences of my decisions and let others accept the consequences of their decisions. I don’t think I should run around insisting anyone who doesn’t agree with me is an idiot, not that I am not tempted, not that I don’t occasionally let a poorly chosen word slip out.
Other the hand, you seem to have a much higher opinion of yourself. I have yet to see why you think it’s merited. Still, I wonder. If this is the way you treat others, should I assume it is the way you want to be treated?
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Fair points Ct- we all on occasion slip in the mud- at least we know we should clean up before sitting on the couch-
I have said the same thing re people who find believers ‘useful’ to their cause, as long as they agree.
Between you and me, the word of God tells us there was a first Adam, and there was a last Adam. The context is obvious.
The Alpha and Omega does not lie. He is not subject to editors and review boards by people with agendas. 😉
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Thank God for that last Adam, or we would have no idea what it is to be freed from the mud.
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I would like this comment twice
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It is not solely Collins as I explained. There were a great many geneticists working on the HGP
The evidence proves that there never was a bottleneck that resulted in a single breeding pair of humans, A.K.A Adam and Eve as per the biblical tale. That is simply nonsense.
If your ”Truth” conflicts with evidence then your ”Truth” needs to adapt, otherwise it isn’t ”Truth.”
Once upon a time the earth was considered the centre of all things and everything revolved around it.
Evidence proved this belief wrong.
As Adam and Eve were once thought to be the original progenitors of humanity, evidence has demonstrated this ”Truth” no longer holds – any more than a 6000 year old earth, and humans and dinosaurs co-existing.
This is what science does.
It is how we put men on the moon and discovered it wasn’t made of cheese.
I firmly agree, you should accept the consequences of my decisions.
After all, the greatest freedom is to accept the consequences, is it not?
But where you are wrong at least demonstrate this modesty by accepting the evidence and acknowledge it.
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Per my title:
‘This is a joke right?’
(With a smile to Crom)
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Lol… typo consequences of YOUR decisions. Apologies, Tom. that sounds dreadful!
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Well, you have it all figured out. Wish I could say that, but I don’t know that much. So I guess I will have to ask you a few questions.
What kind of data did the HGP collect? Is it sufficient for what you claim?
How would someone use the HGP go about proving that all the human race had not descended from just one man and one woman? Keep in mind you are trying to prove a negative.
How does anyone validate a scheme for proving what supposedly did not happen thousands of years ago? Keep in mind your proof is based upon the claim you understand how DNA behaves when the population explodes and then is reduced after Noah’s Flood and explodes again.
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Good points Tom- The very evidence that people cry there is a shortage of, is contained in the scriptures, and is affirmed in life via everyday experiences.
People are the same in any age, albeit, technology changes for the better or worse, still, God’s word has proved consistent and especially answering the deep questions of life, that we need not guess, or be like plastic boats in a tsunami.
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conterargument = counterargument
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Ark, I see you’re familiar with Collins’s views. So why do YOU say the HGP proves something he specifically says it does not prove: https://youtu.be/VpIiq_JmS68 (7 min).
Becky
(EDIT NOTE/ To be fair, I allowed this vid to pass through, as Becky does not usually interchange with ark-here/ that said, one vid asks for one more, then another, then another- not to mention the baggage that possibly comes along with certain sites/ so whether I agree with something or not, still not a fan of ling pong)
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LOL! This must be a joke. I’ll laugh simply because “a merry heart is good medicine.” It says that in one of my history books. 🙂
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Your history book is quite reliable 😎
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Here’s a thoughtful and intelligent take on your post, Colorstorm.
https://nightwind777.blogspot.com/2019/07/an-interesting-question-from-lions-den.html
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No ping back didn’t see so Tkx.
Yes, intelligent. Oh how the godless would take an eraser to scripture pretending the historical narrative is not true.
I would hang my head in shame if I promoted Pilate, Herods, Caesar, Felix, Timothy, Saul/Paul, Daniel, Esther, and Christ Himself as mere stories meant to entertain the kiddies.
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