So then how does man know that lying is innately wrong? How then do we know stealing your neighbor’s wheelbarrow is wrong? Is it simply that the ‘wrong’ is enacted without another’s permission, or that they have been violated or harmed? WHO and WHAT measure dictates what is wrong?
Who ultimately determines WHAT yardstick is used? I say my 35 inches is just as good as your 37 inches, since they are both opinions, yet WHY is 36 inches the only measure that counts as to what is verifiable, reliable, and true, every time?
Who decides WHY there are 24 hrs to the day? The board of timekeepers, or the keeper of time Himself? Wall Street, or He who made the sun so we could track time?
We KNOW the answer to these questions could only be satisfied by the human conscience as wired by the Creator of the brain. Hitler KNEW his actions were wrong. Abraham KNEW lying about Sara was wrong. Mr. Timex KNEW he did not create the second or the minute hand. The conscience is a btich, so unlike the laughing hyena who will steal his brothers meat, then go sleep like a baby after having his stomach satisfied, feeling he did nothing wrong. And he is correct, even though he be a ravenous beast. (But men are not beasts are they………….? Hello/goodbye evolution)
Yet, he that reads, having stole his neighbors tomatoes, KNOWS he did amiss, and that he greatly erred. How we know THIS, is precisely how we know EVERYTHING. Let God be true, and every man a liar. Want to know God more? Deal with the inescapable sin issue.
Tis a far greater crime to lie to oneself.
The things that are made are clearly seen, so that we are without excuse, as to God’s hands in creation and purposes. Any doubts? Just look at the testimony of the plumb line, the carpenter’s level, and the mariner’s compass. The correct measure and trinity of truth, all speaking with one accord; God’s word is good. No question about it.
To ignore these truths is punishing- to explain them away is deceitful- to mock them is perilous. And of course, any conscience knows I am telling the truth.
The Lions Den 
Evolution.
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DID U KNOW that I summarily dismissed that possibility in paragraph 4?
Tkx anyway ark, but the hyenas did not get as lucky to read that memo. They CANT lie, evolution be dmaned.
So what is a child’s excuse, having never LEARNED to engage in such criminal activity?
Next thing you will be telling me, in time the woodpecker will start lying too, saying he never was a head banger. No, this art form is unique to man thank u very much.
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Is it? Evidence then, if you please?
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You have that evidence already. You were born with it.
One of the Great ironies is the attempt to use the existence of evil to prove God does not exist. No God? Then what is evil?
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I have never used such an argument.
In fact, the term evil, like sin, tends to have far too many odious connections with religion.
So if we were ”born with it”, please provide the evidence to demonstrate this.
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Yes. You have. You just did. Did you not say evil, like sin, tends to have far too many odious connections with religion?
You make value judgements all the time. Perhaps you even go too far, beyond your competence, and judge people. Based upon what? How do you know the difference between right and wrong? From where does this discernment, this gift, come from? Evolution? Try proving it.
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Yes, but, I have never cited evil as a reason for why your god does not exist,
There is simply no evidence that your god exists.
Evolution.
I don’t need to prove it., Our continued existence is all the proof we need.
If you wish to assert there is another reason then the onus is on you to demonstrate this with evidence.
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I’m glad CTom is here. You pretend to be deaf, and he has far more patience and grace than myself.
This alone should make u pay attention to the fact that godlessness and evolution cannot hold a candle against the light of God’s creation and people who witness to this obvious fact.
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The onus is on theists such as you guys to find some evidence for everything you claim. Evolution is a scientific fact with loads of evidence that you call a conspiracy, you really have nothing to offer other than words of faith.
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Steve. It’s also easy to make claims of no evidence when you claim the definition of what is evidence as your own. Put a cork in it. No evidence in the world will convince you; God himself could sit beside you and perform a miracle before your very eyes and and you would reject it. The problem is not the evidence; the problem is your heart. FYI, no Christian worth his or her salt is embarrassed by your use of faith as an insult. Of course, we have faith. We also have evidence. You have plenty of faith, too. Your faith in your so-called facts is to be commended. Now, just point your faith in the right direction and you will be fine.
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There is literally tons of evidence for biological evolution, this is why 100% of non-creationist scientists believe it is a fact. I do not decide what is evidence Wally, you may think I have such an influence, however I do not.
Most non-religious people do not use their heart to define what is evidence and what are the facts, they use their brain by utilising logic, common sense, rationality and reality. You claim to also have evidence, unfortunately what you have is far from creditable due to much contrary evidence and the fact Christianity is a syncretistic religion.
Good idea about God performing a miracle while sitting next to me, can you arrange this please? I base my beliefs on real evidence and real facts so how can you claim I have faith? This is not simply about trusting or having confidence in one or two scientists who claim something I like, it is about the credibility of scientific research, the educational backgrounds of thousands of researchers, the passion to find the truth, the strict reviews and acceptance of all scientific work through peer reviews and the wider scientific communities, the scientific doctrine of welcoming new evidence and criticisms and applying changes to their hypothesises, theories and results. All this work is based on data, statistics, experimentation, actualities, details, specifics, sensibilities, logic, evidence, reality and truths etc.
The meaning of faith is a “strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.” (Google) There is no parallel or comparison, therefore supernatural beliefs are simply just that.
(EDIT NOTE- HERE IS A PRIME EXAMPLE why people are lost as fog when trying to add to scripture that which it never says. GOOGLE to define faith? GOOGLE TO supplant God’s Word as if scripture cannot explain itself?
What a first class joke. Steve here, and all other foolish attempts to unseat the Creator, have ZERO credibility when discussing FAITH, as if PROOF Is a ten headed monster.
ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES, and NOT GOOGLE, Faith is substance, it is EVIDENCE, the precise evidence we all use daily to make decisions regarding the simple telling of time.
I will at every occasion, point out the attempted inroads of atheistic irrelevance.)
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Yes you do decide what is evidence. You do it the instant you declare that there is no evidence for God. You don’t actually understand what evidence is. Now why don’t you actually address the opening question of this post. If you can.
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“So then how does man know that lying is innately wrong? How then do we know stealing your neighbor’s wheelbarrow is wrong? Is it simply that the ‘wrong’ is enacted without another’s permission, or that they have been violated or harmed? WHO and WHAT measure dictates what is wrong?”
I have explained that inherently man’s priority since he was only a basic life form on the planet is survival and our brains along with our bodies evolved over billions of years and just as a computer our brains are programmed with the basic attributes that lead to survival. All creatures, even cockroaches have a natural inherent survival mode.
So what explanation apart from the unreliable sources you use do you believe God did it all. You cannot even find evidence that God exists, never mind credit him for everything on Earth.
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Steve. Your computer made you comment on the wrong thread. Oddly you made no less sense than normal.
Still no answer to the question. You goobs keep saying evolution which is stupid. Nothing is innate in evolution. That’s why it’s called evolution lol.
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Sorry Steve but this is way too boring to even answer.
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Smile
Tell that to the birds ….
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Actually, birds apparently pay attention more than you. God gave them wings, not you. He wired them to build simple nests, nests which are identical in Timbuktu or Tahiti, so unlike the unnecessary hundred room mansions built by OTHERS so they can satiate their greed, evolution be damned.
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I was referring to their evolution from dinosaurs.
Or do you think Yahweh buries fossils just to confuse us?
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Is it not convenient? You never have to prove anything. You just have to continue existing.
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Exactly, Tom!
Proof is generally reserved for certain mathematical formulate.
Evidence on the other hand….
And there is no evidence for your creator god, Yahweh. (nor his wife for that matter)
How inconvenient.
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Word games? You don’t play them well. Proof and evidence are synonyms.
Philosophers provide logical proof that God exists. You want what you call evidence? The Bible provides some.
You think you are doing something new? That anyone should be shocked by you? Read Romans 1:18-32. When a Christian chats with you, what should they be thinking? “There but for the grace of God go I.”
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No they don’t.
Again you are making the claims …. therefore, provide the evidence to support these claims.
So far you have offered squat.
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You can’t use Google and read the Bible without my help? I cannot make you believe anything. Is that what you are hoping for?
One of the problems we have is we assume responsibility for things we cannot control. When I debate you, can I make you believe in Jesus? No. Can I help strengthen the faith of others? Can others strengthen my faith? Yes and yes. That is part of fellowship in Christ.☺
Until you believe we cannot share fellowship in Christ. All you can do is demand evidence. All I can do is remind you that you already have an abundance of evidence.
Most of the discussion of God and the Bible is for the benefit of believers. When such enables unbelievers to hear and contemplate the Word, that is important, but people don’t accept a religious doctrine without considerable struggle. And God Himself has the greatest role in changing hearts.
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Good stuff CTom/ what u say here is just as useful for my benefit too/ so keep up the thoughtful contributions
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No, there is not a scrap of evidence for Jesus of Nazareth as portrayed in the New Testament.
You need to behave like an adult who truly seeks honesty in this matter.
Once you face this issue with uncompromising honesty and absolute respect for the evidence then the only answer you are left with is faith and nothing else.
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That is QUITE the compliment Doug, for ‘the just shall live by faith.’ So on behalf of Tom, W, ib22, trish, and countless others, thank you for recognizing the jewels of that which belongs to the Source.
But do know, this ‘faith’ that you abrade, is a surety to us, that which has been tested and proved true for millennia.
This ‘faith’ is indeed preceded by enough evidence that all honest people accept as fact.
Saul was once stubborn, but Paul not so much. Indeed the question of God was never on the table for him, as most sane minds admit to the Creator, but our relationship with Him ha, that’s another story taking a lifetime to tell. His epistles speak freely and absolutely of this faith, once delivered, now received by whosoever will, and this includes you, if you are willing.
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And that statement is a blatant unsupported untruth.
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@ Wally
There is only evidence …. not anyone’s personal spin on it.
You were obviously convinced by something, so what was it Wally?
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Evidence? EVIDENCE?
Uh hello? It’s called life. Life is pure design. There is NO man without a man-maker. Design requires intelligence, something missing from the bias of a godless mind.
And of course the greatest EVIDENCE of all. God’s word, which is forever settled in heaven, which as you know, your conscience speaks this truth, and nature attests.
Wally will not mind if I save him unnecessary aggravation.
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Nope, life is pure evolution.
The bible is nothing but a collection of fantasy tales that are nothing but historical fiction.
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So then we are done here for today yes. Israel being the apple of God’s eye and preserved through millenia is pure fiction eh?
The cashless society foretold thousands of ago long before Bill Gates was in diapers is pure fiction eh?
God being silent today in this era called grace is pure fiction eh? You keep telling yourself that, and I’ll keep telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Court is now adjourned.
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That’s been answered. Why don’t YOU address the question in the post?
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You are referring to John’s opening line, yes?
Evolution.
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No. Lying has always been wrong. No lessons needed.
In a court of law u would be forced to remain silent. The evidence of life indicts you.
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Correct: Lying has always been wrong.
Except when it is deemed expedient.
Evolution.
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You should pay attention. Animals cannot lie. You can. Apparently you haven’t evolved enough.
Sin is a btich. Deal with it. Let God be true and every man a liar.
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Animal cannot lie because they cannot speak in a manner that you understand.
Oh, wait a moment …. unless you are Coco of course ….
Sin is nonsense.
Yahweh is a deity found in the text of the Pentateuch and he had a wife.
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Sin is nonsense to u ark because u do not appreciate nor understand the attending ramifications and consequences.
Of course u would dismiss it; it’s not a pretty word, but it surely is alive and well in this world.
Stealing your neighbors windows is more than a character defect. Shooting a room full of people is more than being in a bad mood?
Sin is nonsense? Yeah, and foolishness is only an eleven letter word.
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Sin is nonsense because it is considered a transgression against your god, Yahweh, (or his wife) for whom there is no evidence whatsoever. (other than a character in the Bible)
One of the most important aspects of true freedom is the freedom to accept the consequences of one’s actions, which I do.
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The EVIDENCE you seek is staring you in the face. Because you think sin is a construct, you think you can wave your magic wand!
As long as you do not face sin, and your own, you will be blind to truth, sorry, ‘‘tis a fact.
We were once like you, but daylight is a wonderful gift. Unwrap it carefully.
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Again, sin is a religious concept and is defined as a transgression against the laws of your god, Yahweh. It has no meaning outside of this framework.
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It’s almost like talking to a dead man as to PROVE to yourself the obvious.
Whether u believe it matters not/ sin is a real and present danger.
History is also your evidence.
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No, sorry, sin is not real, it is a religious construct that plainly refers to any transgression of the laws of your god, Yahweh.
EDIT: sorry can’t fine comment to W.
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Expedience never makes it right. Evo/ big fail and the joke of all created life.
It’s all about Authority. You submit to it every day without considering at all the Highest authority of all. Too bad.
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Yes, but what about your claim that animals don’t lie.
Is that a lie, or did you simply screw up?
I’d post s link for you to enlighten yourself but … well …. we all know you and links right?
You’ve never been one for evidence that contradicts your daydream.
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Really? That’s not an answer that is a word. No sweat, though.
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Then best you go and research evolution.
Understanding it will give you most of the answers.
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Really. So I go prove your assertion. That’s not stupid. That’s extra stupid. No sweat. CS said he’s done. Me too
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Well, yes, when you run out of excuses all you can do is flap your hands and run away.
I understand, Wally, it’s okay, really.
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I concur w/ Wally. Enough of your circus today. Tkx.
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Lying down isn’t, though.
Seriously, my previous pastor used to say, “lying is warfare. When you lie to a loved one, you are making war against them.”
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Even a toddler who has never heard a lie will try to cover it up when they tell one. That pretty much says it all right there.
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INNATE is the word of the day W- 🙂
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Yup
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Well said, Colorstorm. Sorry to mention such a dark subject, but children who are abused and kids trapped in families of addiction, know something is amiss. They have no experience with anything else, and yet they will innately sense that something is all wrong. We are designed to seek out what is good, what is Holy, what is true, which is a curious thing indeed, because sadly some people have never seen what that looks like, have no idea what it even means, and yet they “know.” So a bit like baby ducks will imprint on the first critter they see, we people are already imprinted with the image of our Creator.
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Apology refused. 😉
I know what you mean about the little ones. When I speak of natural defects and protection mechanisms such as lying, in children especially, this in no way negates their goodness and lack of guile, so yeah, While it is true ‘there are none good,’ it is equally true that there is a whole lot of good: ‘suffer the little children to come into me….for OF SUCH……’
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Really? And what does this creator look like, IB?
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Totally wrong CS in the first degree. Just as a mothers natural instinct is to protect her child from harm is exactly the same as the instinct we have to understand what is wrong, we inherently know not to aggravate the neighbours by pinching their wheelbarrow. This is to ensure our survival and to be able to socialise amongst our own species and of course if your parents care enough they will influence you to understand right from wrong. We are all different and a minority of woman do not protect their children, some people fail to teach their kids anything at all and some people may decide they do want to steal the wheelbarrow regardless of how well they know it is wrong.
This is how humans have evolved CS, we are not all perfect or exactly the same as each other, but all humans have certain inherent traits that evolved solely for survival from a dangerous environment just as all of the creatures on Earth have evolved with natural survival traits. These realities however are not explained in your book of fantasies and your claim that God is how we know anything is simply a pipe dream.
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The mere existence of LAW contradicts you at every turn. And laws prove men are law breakers.
Your desire to push evolution denies common sense and the fact that as i proved already, a child will LIE, having never had a lesson.
Sin is a bitch, and you can fight all you want in your mind, God’s assessment of you is perfect.
And stop lying to yourself, it is not becoming of adults.
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Worshipping gods, lying and cheating are also inherent survival skills, just as anger, stress jealousy, violence and love are designed for survival, everything we feel evolved to ensure survival, there is nothing else, all animals have this priority.
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No. Do you ever think before you post? Or does your tongue just rattle off words?
You tell me how love is a survival skill when a man throws himself in front of a train to save another?
Perhaps you need a few lessons on just what exactly the gospel is.
Evolution is a denial of life, death, ,common sense, and truth. Yeah, the sun evolved too,
What a joke.
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Steve. You fail the common sense test yet again. In one sentence you tell us that lying, cheating and so on are just “survival skills.” In another sentence, you yammer about all of the moral failures of Christians. Hey, under YOUR OWN model, we are just trying to survive, right? It’s one or the other, Steve. Either some moral compass guiding the world, or mindless evolutionary self promotion. You don’t get it both ways. PIck one, if you have the guts too.
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What exactly do you think ”mindless evolutionary self promotion” actually is, Wally?
It is ALL about survival.
And, along with these attributes we have developed empathy, also a necessary tool for our survival.
.
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Great, it’s all about survival. No sweat. Then quit yammering about the moral failings of Christians. Under YOUR OWN MODEL we are just trying to survive. More proof that humanism is stupid. Thanks for your support. And why can’t your boy answer for himself anyway? You worried he will make the lot of you look even more senseless?
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Absolutely you are trying to survive.
This is what evolution is all about.
Who’s yammering about the moral failings of Christians?
I wasn’t answering for Steve, but merely providing an answer to your comment.
(Found it)
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Correct Wally! Christianity and all religions evolved from primitive man wanting to survive. He thought a god or gods were deciding the fate that was bestowed upon him, just as you do today in the 21st century. Do you now understand how these primitive bronze age people have manipulated your brain.
Regards, the boy.
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Well now I know why your handler didn’t want you to answer. You said:
“Do you now understand how these primitive bronze age people have manipulated your brain.”
That is, bar none, the winner for asinine comment of the month. You still didn’t address the actual question I asked by the way. All you have done is tell me about my interactions with Bronze age people LOL. Stooopid! Do I need to type the question slowly so that you understand? Or will you just continue to ignore it as you always do?
Much lack of peace and emotional unrest to you as you fail impotently against the One who created you!
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That wins really asinine comment of the year. No wonder your handler doesn’t like it when you speak. ” Do you now understand how these primitive bronze age people have manipulated your brain.” Do you ever think before you write? At any rate, you have yet to address the actual question I asked. No problem. There IS no atheist answer.
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I think I’m in moderation
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I don’t get it/ they go to trash like the others. Lol
WP be crazy
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Well, now it’s there! Weird
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