During a recent exchange with Doug, the following observation was made, and upon further review, not only is it true, but worthy of its own heading:
The knowledge of God is the highest of the sciences.
I suppose some may take umbrage, others may despise it, some will mock, others will smile in agreement, so in case it doesn’t sink in, here it is again for your serious contemplation:
The knowledge of God is the highest of the sciences.
Ah yes, arithmetic, that equally fine navigation marker that leads to God..
The Lions Den 
I don’t think I can be credited for that phrase although I think it was posted from one of my retorts.
I rather prefer to think that since He created the universe then all science man uses is a gift to allow us to explore His domain and appreciate His dominance in our lives. Science isn’t a mechanism to prove or disprove spirituality.
I also prefer to think that His greatest gift to mankind, besides existence itself, is the capacity to perceive beauty in the universe around us… and to experience the beauty in love. Although I am sure it’s natural to assign His “greatest gift” as being the life of His Son to free us from sin… as proclaimed in the Bible. Perhaps that’s up to each of us to balance that.
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Lets just say in our conv the idea came up, I like it, so im sticking to it. 😉
While i do agree that ‘science’ neither proves nor disproves spirituality, I do think in the right hands, it affirms it, as my points made to Barrabas re. arithmetic.
Such precision which the entire world relies upon in every discipline can only be attributed to the greatest Mind of all.
To perceive beauty though, that’s tricky but i know what you mean. A maggot to some is lovely to another. But for goodness sake, who in their right mind could not like sky blue……
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I think you illustrate my point well.
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Science is just simply the search for Truth. It’s actually not a Noun, but a Process… a Method of searching for and investigating what is True and what is not. As such… anything that leads to Truth is in God’s perview… “wheel house” if you will. There is a perspective that ALL searches for Truth find their locus and centerpoint in He who IS Truth.
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Have to disagree as my last sentence demonstrably proves. Arithmetic is the very science of the Creator. How much searching must you do ere you see the obvious?
Arithmetic as an EXACT science asserts the infallibility of God regardless of whether people believe it or care to ‘search.’
The alleged ‘process’ violates God’s prerogative and asserts that man can, via ‘process,’ can determine what ‘science’ is. No.
‘Scientists’ per se, do not search for truth, if they did, they mouths would zip up when it comes to evolution and such lies. The science lab of God, and our labs which create viruses are antagonistic at best.
But I’ll admit that Truth is all pervasive.
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Importantly, arithmetic, or simply Math, while being a “science” is actually a “tool” used in the Process of the scientific method for investigating and discovering Truth. So… again, science isn’t a Noun per se, but a Verb if you will… a Process and a method. Even math.
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‘The evening and the morning were the first day.’
And the second day.
And the third day.
Numbers. The science of God.
This was not dreamed up in a lab by Moses.
Impossible for man to know anything about the 1st, 2nd, 3rd day, etc. The knowledge of God here is the highest of the sciences.
See the difference between our math and His? So again, man did not create arithmetic.
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God is neither science nor mathematics. Such a claim is blasphemous. By definition, science is how we understand our material world and mathematics is how we understand and express science. Since God is beyond the material world, he is beyond science and mathematics.
To understand God requires his grace, our service to him and our contemplation of him. If anything, this is art, not science.
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Tkx Silence.
As said already to Barabbas, you are falling short in one area.
The KNOWLEDGE of God…… this is the key to how we understand anything. Once more, arithmetic, as an exact science, was engineered by the Creator.
It is His knowledge, not ours. We are borrowers of His handiwork plain and simple. We are not the geniuses we pretend to be.
We discover by His knowledge. When the men made brass instruments in the days of Adam, who taught them about alloys?
Yet, we mistakenly assert that we moderns have manufactured knowledge. Look at SMART phones. People have become idiots by walking into walls by looking in their hands.
Yeah, we evolved to the point where we leave God out of everything. Think again about the knowledge of God. You are not going far enough.
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CS, We gain basic knowledge (grammar) from the Bible and more indepth understanding from Bible studies (logic) and profound knowledge of God from contemplation (rhetoric). Grammar, logic and rhetoric are the components of the “trivium of classical education.”
From Antiquity to about 100 years ago, Christian classical education was how people were formed as disciples of Christ. Civilization took off and flourished.
For the last 100 years Christian classical education was thrown under the bus. Thus the smart phone phenomena. People’s minds are going to pieces for lack of Christian classical education.
Nevertheless, one does not need to be classically educated to understand that the Bible, the Word of God, is not a book on science and math.
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Basics knowledge silence? Such as the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night? The science of botany per Genesis, and the science of the two genders?
If it’s basic knowledge, society is a field of dunces. While it is true that the Bible is not a book of science or math- it certainly does not contradict them either- and if we cared to investigate- scripture contains more TRUE science- as opposed to ‘oppositions of science falsely so-called’ warned perfectly by the apostle.
And btw, many Jewish rabbis put to shame Christian thinkers having only half the Bible- do yourself a favor and listen to their lectures on logic/God/ the Old Testament / law/ etc- we tend to glorify Christianity to the point of worship.
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Arguments over semantics are pointless. Define your terms and leave it at that. Ultimately, what a word means is what most people think it means. Of course, we each try as best we can to get others to agree to our own usage.
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=science provides the meaning of the term “science” from a historical perspective. Suffice it to say the meaning of the term “science” has been much fought over abused. If we define science as the knowledge we have gained using the scientific method, that is obviously not “science” in the sense that you are using the word. So, I don’t have a problem with your “observation” sense your meaning is clear.
Nevertheless, there is an older way of phrasing your observation.
Theology is the queen of the sciences, and philosophy is its handmaiden.
See https://biblehub.com/library/clement/the_stromata_or_miscellanies/chapter_v_philosophy_the_handmaid_of.htm
and
https://www.gotquestions.org/theology-queen-sciences.html.
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Tons of good stuff in those links tom/ certainly Silence ofmind would agree entirely with those descriptions/
I’ll add this too from another place which speaks more directly to my usage of the word:
SCI’ENCE n. L. scientia, from scio, to know.
—in a general sense, knowledge, or certain knowledge; the comprehension or understanding of truth or facts by the mind. The science of God must be perfect.—–
The word ‘science’ is used 2x in scripture, alluded to in many more, and it speaks to my definition that God’s knowledge is paramount, and we only discover what belongs to Him, ie, that exact science arithmetic, from which flows all others.
Colors in the rainbow. The notes in the scale in a babbling brook. 7 days in the week, 360 degrees in the circle. All we do is agree with His perfections. He is the great Scientist, no wonder His word is despised by atheists.
We put limitations on Him, as if we are the geniuses around here. Ive said before the likes of DeGrasse and Nye make me nauseous. But they are applauded as great scientists? I dont think so.
So yes, the knowledge of God is the highest of the sciences, as in, what is absolutely true comes from Him.
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Comment in moderation.
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Interesting topic, CS. Not for me, but interesting nevertheless.
Uh hope you won’t mind me asking as this subject came up elsewhere.
As a proponent of, ( F.E.) Do you have/ are aware of / and photographs of our flat earth?
If so, could you provide a link?
Thanks a bunch.
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I ask this not to judge anyone.. but all this talk of science vs religion seems not important to me. Why is there a debate at all simply to try to prove or disprove the other’s naysayers?
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Fair question D/
To me it’s not science vs. religion- but setting forth proper context in a world that worships ‘science.’ Science as put forth in scripture is opposed to our universities findings today, sorry to say.
It’s prob much simpler though- some collect bottle caps- others thimbles- some specialize in politics- it boils down to what one is passionate about yes?
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Well, of course.. po-tay-to and po-tah-to. It’s just there seems an awful lot of energy spent in that battle when it’s so obvious to me that if God created man then He also created science as a means for man to adapt to survive. Rather an extension of proving mankind with free will.
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Proving/providing
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‘If’ being the operative word, of course.
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Agreed.. but I leave that up to the individual. I personally have no interest to prove one way or the other. In my mind I consider a spiritual/moral componant to human thought as being necessary for humans to exist in a reality. Two mental planes of human thought… one part exists in the here-and-now, the other is where we place those elements not understood and maybe given a temporary recognition through some level of faith. This tends to explain mankind developing a religion from that which is unknown, creating the Constellations, thinking the events of nature.. weather, etc. as being assigned to specific gods in human form. This of course, dictates human behavior toward one another by assigning a moral compass. Contemporary faith-based religion performs in the same way. Our reality is made palatable by believing in something outside of it, and applying it.
But.. this is just me.
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Would I be correct then in saying religious belief/ faith exists and will continue to do so even though evidence regularly refutes certain such claims?
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Absolutely, it’s in the nature of mankind given human thought is based on our individual ability to reason for ourselves as we interpret individually the world around us while acting collectively to survive in it. Some people find comfort in an abstract, others in a greater sense of cause and effect. But then again.. I don’t refute the Bible (or any bible) or its teachings, because its content tends to promote a behavioral direction mankind can apply in the reality. The debate between faith and science seems to hover over the Old Testament and Creationism. Science prefers the varieties of Darwinism. Personally I think it’s the lessons of the story more than a definition of existence. But that’s just me. It’s a personal decision leading to a personal belief. Part of the debate is also fed by organized religions persistent in the zealous recruiting of new followers by trying to separate people from their reality in order to totally embrace a spirituality… as if it were one or the other choice. To me it’s all about living in a harmony… your reality within your spiritual self. But again, that’s just me.
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Sounds like a fairly reasonable approach.
However, where evidence, scientific or otherwise, demonstrates there is a clear path to take, even when contrary to what the bible asserts,( Adam & Eve Vs the Human Genome Project for example) there is a danger of corrupting critical thinking when the latter is pushed, especially upon children.
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What will you do then ark when Collins and the HGP one day admits they erred in their data, and that yes, Mr Adam and the Mrs were in fact the first of all?
( as to your other, just look at any photo of earth. Now take away the bastard fish eye- and the cunning movement. I challenge you to research cams by amateurs at the highest of altitudes. No curve. No spin. And btw, humans cannot go high enough to see earth in its entirety- unless cgi counts)
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The research has been confirmed and advanced since Collins team first mapped the sequence.
There is more scientific evidence these days.
The question should be, Why do you still refuse to acknowledge the evidence?
Well?
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Again, have any photos of the flat earth specifically taken by fellow proponents and can you provide a link to these?
Simple yes or no will suffice.
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Short vid here. Enjoy.
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The video does not directly reply to my request regarding photographs taken by a flat earth proponent.
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Uh hello? The planes wing follows the plane of the earth. Like a level. The airplane is on automatic cruise control traversing the sky, matching perfectly the plane of earth.
Pretty simple really.
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Yes, but again, do you know of any photographs taken by any fellow proponents of a flat earth?
A simple yes or know
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Not far enough away
Don’t tell me you deny the moon landings as well?
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Ark. Good to hear from u though and trust a new near brings u good things.
You in a dilemma however. Collins is somehow useful to you on one hand- but he believes in the resurrection. Hmm. Why don’t u support his evidence there also?
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He suffers from a degree of cognitive dissonance and rekues upon compartmentalism
to ensure his faith is intact.
Ergo, where there is overlap it is as always:
“Yahweh ( your god) works in mysterious ways ” or some similar pithy retort.
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Sorry, tyoi.
He relies upon …
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Actually, we prob don’t agree at on on spiritual matters, which should surprise you.
But his facts are just about refutable- he answers ‘why does it matter?’ rather well.
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Not sure I am following this reply, CS?
First, Collins work, nor what has come after, on the HGP has ever been refuted.
Second. That he believes in the Resurrection should have no direct bearing upon his scientific work.
Like most wilfully Indoctrinated Fundamentalists, he copes with any cognitive dissonance by using compartmentalism.
A clever, but somewhat disingenious way of rationalising his scientific work with the unsupported faith-based religious nonsense he subscribes to in the belief he will get to spend eternity with Jesus /Yahweh in Heaven.
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Never been refuted ark?
I have just refuted it. Careful with words there partner, as that’s how we arrive at erroneous conclusions.
God’s word has the drop over Collins and his friends.
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You refuted what, exactly?
The human genome project?
Are you delirious?
Also, I may not be picking up all your replies – I’m using the phone not the laptop – I asked if you accepted that men have landed on the moon.
Can’t find a reply?
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Refuted his ultimate conclusions yes.
Mr Adam lived. Period. His, and your argument is not with me, but the Creator.
He is missing a link it’s really simple. He and his team failed to compensate for information they cannot obtain, thus the conclusions are tainted.
How a person can say they believe God’s word, and say Adam is fictitious……..embarrassing.
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No , no refutation.
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No doubt his work is useful in many fields/ doesn’t go far enough/ commendable nevertheless- but many have expressed opinions that 90% accuracy leaves questions-
Like the chimp/ man dna thing- that .01% discrepancy is reason to be suspicious-
So yeah- to say Adam did snot live and die is well, rather nefarious.
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There was no bottleneck that could have allowed for a single breeding pair of humans.
Period.
Jump up and down all you like.
Whine and grind your teeth, throw about all the apologetics you like. All it does is encourage normal people to edge away slowly and hope the YEC nutter ranting away in the corner doesn’t get violent.
“Come children. Let’s just move along. I’m sure the doctor will be along anytime.”
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Ok ark. You stick with earths best men.
I’ll stick with the God of all best men. And He bests them all…..
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Yahweh is a genocidal meglomaniac Canaanite deity.
He had a wife, and was part of a pantheon, of which El was the head.Oh, and he is made – up
It’s all right there in your big book of nonsense – the bible
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Yikes ark you are all over the place.
Straying from the initial observation re. The knowledge of God/ the sciences/ to FE/ now this? Gee man make up your mind- the amusement park spin-a- whirl is tedious.
That spinning ball thing made u dizzy. But do u read all books like this. Cutting out a page here and there and drawing conclusions?
Or do u quickly forget that ‘in the beginning’ things were VERY GOOD…….You know, like sunlight?
And they once more will become ‘very good’ because of He who is above all? Btw, read 1 Corinthians 13 lately??
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Again, do you have, are you aware of any photographs taken by bonafide Flat Earthers like yourself?
I keep asking this question but for some reason you are either missing it or refusing to answer.
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The same photos you have ark. Except take away the fish eye- also, no aircraft can ascend high enough to capture earth in one frame, thus, correct, man has never ‘walked’ on the moon.
Walt Disney employed by NASA provides clues….
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He specialized in cartoons, and I’m the crazy one? His vision for ‘the magic kingdom’ has enabled a kingdom of dunces. He craftfully blurred the lines between reality and fantasy.
Btw, our hero Degrasse said he will not/ no nae never- debate the likes of Eric Dubay- seems odd that a man of such intellectual prowess would refuse to set straight such loons as Eric- unless of course he is fearful he will get his clock cleaned with facts.
Apparently, he is fearful of his own science….
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