Men ask questions pretending to be smarter than God, and think they are wise in setting a ‘trap,’ but ignore questions that prove our ignorance, then claim God somehow is ineffective or powerless, and in the process, tighten the noose around their own pride, which guarantees their self-induced snares of mental disadvantages. Need an example? Sure, tkx for asking.
‘Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Note the DEMAND ordered by God to we the people. Observe the request for an ANSWER. Search your mind and heart and consider WHERE were you when earth was created? Were you invited to the board room to approve the blueprints? Was your opinion sought after? Did you cast a vote? Did you consult your science books for answers lest you be embarrassed?
Do you UNDERSTAND these monumental questions? WHO laid the foundations? Where are these foundations and what are they made of? What size? How long? How high? Impervious to heat? Cold? Earthquakes? Water pressure? Go ahead, answer the Creator with your ‘science’ guesses.
But note, God’s questions give opportunity to be wise, and ‘do not answer……………’
WHO laid the measures of the earth? Go ahead, answer if you know. Or, take the ‘easier’ question: that perpetual horizon ‘line,’ which looks like the carpenter’s snap line which is utilized in any quality project where accuracy is demanded, WHO stretched that line?
But no, men choose to not only ignore such questions, but assume such questions are stupid. Science! say they, is the answer to all issues of life. Science! alone explains the DEMANDS asked by God which in fact should put men in their proper place of intellectual inferiority and necessity, the place where honesty DEMANDS we know so little if not anything at all.
The whole point of God’s questions are to prove HE ALONE has all trademarks and HE ALONE holds the title deed to the earth. His questions benefit us is ways no university textbook can.
If you have UNDERSTANDING, answer.
If you KNOW, answer. But……..
Dare you mock God’s DEMAND for the correct answers? It’s a great opportunity to see how unlearned we really are, how foolish man is to pretend we know more than Him. These questions, thousands of years old, are just as relevant as when asked to Job. Why? If we took to heart the ramifications intended, God’s word would prevent us from the sheer imbecility of boys in girls bathrooms, of people shooting their neighbors, and of thieves wanting to be professional politicians’.
EVERTHING is connected to God’s questions. So no, we are not clever. But yes, God’s questions are always very good.
The Lions Den 
The “original” sin in the garden had zero to do with an apple, or whatever fruit it was. it’s a sin that we find very ‘original’ in each of us and must be ‘subjected’ to the obedience of Faith in the One who Knows better than we do. Amen
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‘Clever’ answer Bar, but wrong. Were you. I, or anybody else federal head of the human race?
The warp and woof of scripture pits the first man, the second man, against the first Adam, the last Adam. and of course this is not us but only Christ Himself.
My citing God to Job is not really about ‘sin’ per se, but how our intellect and pride tempt us to think we are somehow wiser or clever.
His questions should humble us, that we have no excuse. The atheist should be made mute, and the believer should be humbled.
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Their sin was lack of trust and Faith in what God had told Adam. The “origin” our sin is the same. It’s origin is in us. Adam may have been the “federal head” as some would say, but the sin and origin us the same.
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Sorry bar, the world that that was, and the world in which Adam lived, is NOT the world that is, and is not the world in which we live.
Proof?
Sure. 969 yr, life span, ours 75, etc. Not sure why you are trying to make something out of nothing.
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All sin is based in disobedience to God’s standard or dictates. All such disobedience has its “origin” in unwillingness to trust or have Faith that such standards or dictates are better or more beneficial than ours. Eve’s decision in vs 6, and in turn Adam’s, was based in the serpent’s vs 4 and 5. She Trusted, had more Faith in, what serpent had said that what God had. Adam’s sin was “original” as you said, being the “federal head” the human race and thus separating us from God as he was separated from the garden with the Tree of Life. However our sin is no less “original” to us than it’s origin was in Adam. We each make the same choice as he and Eve did, to choose our own discernment or judgement instead of Trusting and having Faith in His. That’s what I’ve been trying to say.
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Scripture as well as experience disagrees. I understand your sentiment, but it’s incorrect.
Mr and Mrs Adam sinned as fully made adults.
Children sin by virtue of birth, having never had a lesson nor warning. The contrast cannot be more clear.
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I’m sorry we disagree John. But i don’t believe scripture teaches that “virtue” of just having been born that God considers babies “sinners” worthy of death or hell. I once did until I “searched the scriptures to see if these things be true” for myself. I don’t disagree with the scripture but rather with your, indeed most fundamentalist, interpretations of the passages that are usually put forward to support such a brutal and monstrous idea. Sin always involves a choice or a decision, even if that choice or decision is an unconscious “innate” one.
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Pretty sure i didn’t mention the word ‘hell,’ in the post Bar, and i’m positive I didn’t say ‘babies are worthy of hell.’
As far as brutal or monstrous, that’s pretty much the point i’m making when men do not consider God’s questions: ‘where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?’ then substitute artificial answers which are pure guesses.
How arrogant mankind has become, to ‘phase out’ the Creator from His creation, as if He is irrelevant, only to be replaced by ‘knowledge and science,’ a trap it appears, you are falling into.
Scripture is not ambiguous as you suppose. There is no dream of Daniel here that needs interpreted. Tkx for the compliment though in pointing out I believe scripture as it is written.
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thought experiment that might answer your first comment on “babies worthy of hell” and your interpretation of scripture as being sinners “by virtue of birth”…
1. sinners without christ go to hell when they die. 2. babies “by virtue of being born” are sinners. 3. when babies die before they can volitionally accept christ they go to…. ?
(and please don’t say some bs like “limbo” or “purgatory”. neither has warrant in scripture.)
you’ll most likely say something like “theres an “age of accountability”, also without warrant in holy writ.
so yes, the implication of what you said is that if we are “sinners by virtue of our birth” you are saying babies go to hell when they die (and are worthy of it, for no one is “worthy” of God’s Presence in Heaven without christ.
It’s a very good thing… indeed… that scripture does not support “sinners by virtue of birth”.
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Not sure why you are being utterly recalcitrant.
‘Sin’ and ‘sinners’ are two different things.’
‘There are none righteous, no not any.’ ‘Now Zacharias was a good man….’ ‘Stephan was a good man…’
Why can’t you see this? You are making yourself too large and God too small.
Who teaches a child to
Lie having never had a lesson? It’s in the dna by virtue of birth. But you make God a monster because you don’t understand what sin is by practice?
No. He is perfectly smart enough to judge everything by virtue of Himself. But back on point. His questions force us to see things from His perspective, something we apparently do not want to do.
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I think you have it wrong as well brother. “Sin” isn’t a disease or a spiritual “genetic” abnormality that is inherited or passed on father to so, mother to daughter. We aren’t born with any “nature” bent on “sin” any more than Adam was. They made a choice, we make choices. The ones that are in opposition to or defiance of God’s will or “choices” for us… That’s what we call Sin. Please find in genesis 3 the point at which God gives or Adam gains a “sin nature”. And if Adam only got this “sin nature” as a result of the fall… how did he and Eve “sin” without it?
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Romans explains Genesis. Genesis is not a book on doctrine, but a record of history.
Sin and death. Can you escape either? You failed to address ‘how’ Junior lies having never been taught……
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Jr. Lies because like us… and adam… we have a free will to obey or disobey, do good or do evil, tell the truth or lie. No “sin nature” required, as it wasn’t for Adam or Eve.
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Hmmm. So…….. could Christ Himself have sinned???? Is it that He could have but chose not to…… or that He could not????
The correct answer here will help you immensely. But your concerns are age old, and many struggle unnecessarily. God is good, His word is true, and we are not God.
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No… Christ did no sin. Could he have? Yes. I believe He could have as a man. But of course, His will was completely surrendered to God’s will… as He was “the Word became flesh”. He was both God and man.
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And this is precisely WHY you are having trouble Bar.
In Him, was NO sin. He was MADE sin…..God, who CANNOT lie……
God, who CANNOT lie. It is impossible for God to lie. He that hath seen me, hath seen the Father.
Why do you think John 8 and the stoning of the woman is so important????
Your argument is not with me.
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Jesus taking the sin of the world, becoming sin for us, did not imply or directly state He took on our “sin nature”. Just that He took our sins onto Himself. Taking the just punishment for our sin… not a Sin Nature that you can’t demonstrate from the Fall in Gen 3 that humans ever “received” or were given because of Adam and eve’s disobedience. Sin is as “original”, meaning it’s Origin is in our choices and actions, as it was in Adam. My argument is actually with Augustine, the one who brought such an unbiblical and monstrous doctrine intonthe church from his previous manichean Gnosticism.
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I plead the 5th…….. of Romans. Read it and stand corrected.
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It wasn’t because Jesus “didn’t have the same Sin Nature as humans” that He did no sin. He was God, fully surrendered and United with the will and work of God. He could have, but He didn’t and wouldn’t have. Big difference.
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Love it when Christians argue among themselves. Always brings back fond memories of when they slaughtered each other over doctrine. Those poor old Cathars, eh?
And of course it’s a real bonus when one such as Colorstorm gets his arse handed him on a plate over something like the invented Doctrine of Original Sin.
Fun read…
Don’t mind me!
“Carry on Sargent!”
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‘All have sinned , and come short of the glory of God.’
‘For by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin.’
‘The thought of foolishness is sin.’
”Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures.’
‘Sin is not imputed where there is no law.’
‘The wages of sin is death.’
Ah yes, how scripture shuts all mouths.
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Shuts off the brains of the Indoctrinated sycophants.
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To be so sober minded is one of the true foundations of strength. I may even call it a pillar.
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Ark, intramurals. We aren’t “arguing”. We’re having a discussion with some minor disagreement. Overall, John is still my brother in Christ and not my “enemy”. Im not even sure i have any of those.. not even you. And I’d never, ever think of “slaughtering” anyone.. let alone a brother in Christ… over any doctrine. I know you’re just having your fun, Doug. But there is no division here to exploit.
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Muslins slaughter Jews, Jews slaughter Muslims, Muslims slaughter Christians and Christians slaughter Muslimsm Catholics slaughter Protestants an Protestants slaughter Catholics. It is a drama that has played out since Yahweh was invented.
As for you lot discussing( sic) … well, if you can”t agree do ‘t you consider the us reason enough to realise it is all simply man made nonsense?
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Sorry doug, no one is “slaughtering” anyone here. we’re having a healthy discussion. that’s all.
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I am aware.I was merely pointing out how it happened all over the globe and still does happen in isolated pockets even today.
One of the reasons why religion is not only so utterly ridiculous but also vile and how it corrupts normal healthy individuals to believe the type of garbage that you and CS are rabbiting on about.
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still happening? Christians killing non-christians… for not being christian? really? gonna have to ask you to “show your cards” and bring the receipts, doug. where on the “globe” (good one by the way seeing we’re on John’s blog) is this “still happening”?
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Yeah bar, seems to me all stripes of people have the market cornered on the killing of others.
Atlanta. Texas. London. Havana. Quito. Tokyo. Moscow. Mexico City. Amsterdam. Krakow. Damascus. etc.
People need to wake up and see just exactly ‘where’ this inspiration of killing came from……….
Here’s a clue: Cain.
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As i said before John, we neither need Adam or Cain as the ‘origin’ of our own sin. both Adam and Cain were just the first. Adam was the ‘first’ to sin, Cain was the ‘first’ murderer. The “origin” of their sin was the same as the origin of ours. Their/our own freewill and decisions to trust our own wisdom rather than the Wisdom and Righteous command/Will of the God who created and sustains us all. We need neither cain or adam to ‘inspire’ our sin. we do just fine in that regard all by ourselves.
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Once more I think u are missing the higher point. ‘Where’ did the idea of murder come from since it never happened before.
It would help u I think if u considered the law of first mention. The rage. The hatred. The internal boiling of thoughts that drive him to kill his own brother.
The blood crying from the ground thing…….
Remember, the sons were ‘born.’ Adam was created. Huge distinctions.
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NOW you want to invoke the Law of First Mention (one i might add that not all christians agree is actually a “law”)? Where was that when discussing Genesis 3 and “original sin”? Jumped right over the whole OT and a good portion of the NT (including the Gospels and Acts where Jesus and His direct disciples might have ‘weighed in’) straight to Paul in Romans. (no denigration to Paul, I just think you’re ‘stretching’ particular passages of chapter 5 into a familiar fundy ‘pretzel’) You “law” of first mention should have allowed you to look at genesis 3 with eyes and a mind not clouded by “systematic theology” meant to “make everything fit”. But… i digress.
As i said before, sin is very “original” to our own hearts and free wills, no “stain of Adam’s sin” or “inspiration” from Cain required at all.
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The book of Romans by the greatest theologian Paul as given by not Solomon, but God, sets straight our concerns and questions re. our very discussion.
Simply, for by ‘ONE’ man sin entered the world, not TWO, ‘and death by sin.’
You use the word ‘original’ not me, but Adams sin was surely the first of its kind, and it happened long before the fruit entered the stomach. But It u didn’t answer the question:: WHERE did Cain get the inspiration to kill his brother…..
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cain got his the same place we do and the same place adam and eve did “before the fruit entered the stomach”. Our own freewill and trusting our own decisions rather than God’s Word.. just like Cain, just like Adam, just like Barabbas, just like John, just like Doug. Sin had it’s “origin” in the heart of man by our own free will.
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You still didn’t go far enough. WHERE did the idea of murder come from……
Murder? What’s murder? Your ‘free will’ thing is too narrow.
Stealing penny candy and killing your neighbor because his rooster is too loud are not the same ‘sin.’
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@Barabas me
You realise Adam and Eve are simply theological inventions, yes?
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Are you sure?
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@ Barabas me.
Oh dear, don’t tell me you are a frakking Creationist?
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And yes, i believe God created all things.
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Then you are obviously ignorant of the scientific evidence that says otherwise.
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Oh, I think you’d be surprised at what’s on my bookshelves. I’m widely read.
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So why are you arguing about the HGP?
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I’m not. You brought it up, I said nothing about it… yet. 🙂
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@barabas me
You questioned the assertion that Adam and Eve are theological constructs/ inventions.
Are you saying you consider they ARE the progenitors of the human race as per genesis?
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This is what I Believe.
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If you believe the bible characters Adam and Eve are the progenitors of the human race then you reject the scientific evidence of the HGP that has demonstrated beyond any doubt that this is an impossibility.
Why?
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Fortunately there is source material far more reliable than Collins sequencing.
That is of course God’s word, which is settled forever. You watch, Collins will apologize when he figures out WHAT he missed. And the ‘science’ community will then have no further use for him.
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Hilarious!
The same god who made a flat earth?
😂
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‘So you think you are clever’ is the post heading. Read it again.
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Clever, not necessarily.Reasonsbly intelligent, most certainly.
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As far as camera work and spiders I concur. As to scripture, not so much.
(Btw, the genealogies in Mt. and Luke kind of shame Collins ultimate conclusions. Just sayin.
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Scripture is nothing more than Historical Fiction.
Just sayin.
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Really? So the Tigris and Euphrates early in Genesis are fiction? Solomon never lived nor built the temple? 9’6 Goliath of Gath was like some call AI?? The genealogy in Luke is a fable??? Moses never lived? Israel was never a nation? The Jews were not taken to Babylon? King Nebuchadnezzar never ruled? Esther was a fairy tale? Haman was not hung? David did not write psalms? Bathsheba did not have a son? The Amalekites were great friend of the Jews? John was not exiled to Patmos? Gamaliel never taught Saul? Paul never lived?
Shall I go on to prove your myopia?
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Obviously you not understand the term Historical Fiction.
Sigh
Christians …smh.
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Yeah, one of my fav books is ‘old Fort Duquesne,’ the story of the French / Indian wars being pivotal in the 3 rivers area, notably Pittsburgh Pa and the then surrounding mountains.
Charles Knight if I recall. Beautiful writing. Purely historical fiction, so of course people with a good brain know the difference.
There is NOTHING like the Bible. Sorry. I understand why people like yourself struggle with this, and further know why Genesis proves to be such a stumbling block, but NO MAN, nor group of men, could possibly have catalogued such a book, having never known each other, yet is so wonderfully consistent with itself, which in the end, proves God’s hand, and every man a liar.
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And yet it remaims nothing but geopolitical foundation myth and historical fiction.
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Yay, progress. You admit Esther (Hadassah) and Haman lived. Now connect the dots.
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Progress?
So you acknowledge the bible is Historical Fiction and geopolitical foundation myth!
Yay!
Now connect the dots ..
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No. Esther. Haman. Daniel. Job. Adam. Christ. Sin. Death. Exile. Truth. Lies. Good. Evil. Light. Dark. Male. Female.
Every word is true like it or not.
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Sorry, you are now drifting off into your usual drivel when you get cornered with nothing but faith.
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“… nothing but…” now THERE’s your problem right there. Can two thing be the same? Can one things be the Other at the same time? Think deeper than your “Fundy” atheism allows. You might just “see”
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The Torah is primarily geopolitical foundation myth.
The New Testament is historical fiction.
Perhaps you need to put aside your indoctrinated religious beliefs for a while and reconsider the bible for what it truly is?
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The Bible is for me the Words of God. I find peace, life and purpose. I don’t always agree or understand everything in there. I once thought I did. But not anymore. Though in my mind I sometimes even have issues with what is historical or… dare I say it… not, in the Bible I find the Word of God. Nope Doug, I know what the Bible truly is for me. God’s Speaking to me and to all who will listen.
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So you reject evidence that has refuted and continues to refute biblical claims.
Do you believe the Noachian flood tale as well?
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I’ve given the answer your going to get. I’m sorry, but I’m not going to “debate” or argue back and forth with you about the details. You’re a good man Charlie Brown, but you’re going to “whiff” on this one as lucy takes the ball away. Lol
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Sorry, are you afraid to discuss specific bible passages?
As we say: “Cat got your tongue?”
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Hate cats. Large rodents they are
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Cats are the exemplars of independence.
Nothing wrong with rodents either.Rats are highly intelligent.
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cats are the evil overlords who only make us think that we. are the masters and they are the servants. insidious is their control over all who fall into their traps. cleaner than dogs? perhaps, they keep you, not the other way ’round. as for rats? they’re rats. Ugh!!
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Rats are extremely clean animals.
Highly intelligent, sociable and friendly.
I have eleven cats.
That you hate them illustrates your ignorance and hypocrisy.
Aren’t you supposed to love all your god’s creatures ( sic)?
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Alright “bible student” I’ll bite. Where is it written in the Bible that I am to “love all of God’s creatures”? My neighbor… sure, if he’s in my “tribe” otherwise he’s an amalekite!! (Just kidding) 🙂
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I didn’t say it was in the bible. I merely thought that as an indoctrinated Christian you were supposed to love all Yahweh’s creatures.
Seems odd that you would hate anything.
Rather a strong emotion , don’t you think?
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You are being extremely narrow minded. People ‘hate’ animals for various reasons. Some people love mosquitoes. Some prefer dogs. Farmers hate coyotes that kill their sheep. Some hate those snickering hyenas.
Loving God’s creatures? How about hating sin?
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Sin is any transgression against your god, Yahweh.
I have no belief in your god, Yahweh.
Ergo, no sin.
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Tons of car drivers are dead too because they didn’t think speed limits applied to them……
You can dislike the word all you want, but the court systems across the world suggest otherwise.
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“Noachian”? Now there’s a fun word. Lol
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Sorry, would you have preferred Noah and the global flood?
Well, do you consider the tale to be supported with evidence?
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How does DNA “know” how to reproduce? How does RNA “know” how to? We know that they do… But do we know how they “know” to do these things? We think we know alot about the “how” and “that” things happen. How much do we actually “know” about the “why”? Argument from Ignorance you’ll say… I say we’re all “ignorant” of most of the Why questions of “how does that stuff just ‘know’ how and ‘that’ to do what it does?”. Stop trying to shake me about the “naoachian” flood… and start asking the real questions.
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Are you arguing for the origins of life or arguing against evolution?
Again, let me make this as simple as I can.
Do you believe the tale of Noah and the global flood as described in Genesis is historical fact?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
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I say it again, you’re possibly more fundy than I am, but you use it as a cudgel. Well, I won’t be your mark today.
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So you run and hide behind the skirts of your faith based fallacious beliefs.
Why do you even bother to take the time to visit here and comment?
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My questions relate to our common ignorance and our common steps of “faith” in others to tell us what is and what is not. Do you know how dna “knows” to reproduce itself and that it should do so? Who or what tells cells, single or otherwise, That they should divide and How to do so? Or when they should do it? We can’t even answer the most basic of questions like these. Only that they do it and the mechanisms and methods they go thru in doing it. Not why or how or how they know to do it. The very building blocks and the builders of what we call Life and yet we have no clue Why or How they Know how to Do what they Do.
Back to the Beginning. God is the Only Progenator and Sustainer of Life and all there is.
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And naturally, you have evidence for your claims regarding Yahweh.
Please present it.
Thanks
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oh doug, i think you have me at a disadvantage, or perhaps i do you. i never said i could present Evidence, let alone such as you would accept, for my Belief that God is the Progenator of all there is… I have Faith, as do you that He isn’t and doesn’t even exist. (there’s a Tea Pot in there somewhere) 🙂
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Well to paraphrase Mr.Sam Clemens…
Faith is believing in something you know ain’t true.
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I’m pretty sure he stretched that yarn a bit thin. Faith is just trust. That’s all it is.
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Wrong. I trust based on evidence
You have faith and no evidence
This is the power of indoctrination.
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So there is nothing you trust without evidence? Are you sure?
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Even so… Faith isn’t necessarily ties to evidence or not. It’s just Trust. That’s all. How that Trust is based is a different question.
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“Even so”?
So now you’re having to backpedal.Okay.
Faith is not trust and certainly not in this context so please stop being disingenious.
Faith is believing what you know ain’t real.
In fact it is worse as there is demonstrable evidence to show much of the bible is false, and we can start right at the beginning.
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There is ZERO evidence to refute biblical facts.
Claims maybe. Opinions maybe. The scriptures stand unrivaled and unrattled. Like Goliath the oaf and his claims. Did-not end well did it……
The small left-hander was a marksman. Big mouths have small brains.
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“Big mouths have small brains.”
Having read your flat-earth blog for a number of years and the science denying YEC crap you continually post this is one time I wholeheartedly agree with you.
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Let’s examine shall we. Paraphrasing. Goliath said ‘you little punk dare to challenge me??????’ ( big mouth)
Paul’s enemies: ‘we swear not to eat until he is killed….’ uh, they did not die of starvation, but were liars.
Once more, big mouths. God’s word always has the final say. Things never change.
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You do not have the word of Yahweh, only the ignorant fallacious word of anonymous authors.
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Theology 101. You have zero claim to ‘Yahweh’
as this is a specific dispensational name per relationship with Jews alone.
Start with God. Much simpler. Why do you think it is ‘in the beginning God……’
And you will wear your arms out before you can come up with one drop of proof that God’s word is not accurate nor true.
No other source material can compete.
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Nope The deity you worship is Yahweh.
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I believe every word of it. You believe none of it.
Prob makes me a bit more credible when it comes to understanding. EL is specific to IsraEL plain and simple.
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So Yahweh isn’t your god? Is this your position?
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Are you pretending to be dense?
Cannot a Judge be also father, uncle, brother, cousin, grandfather?
But for Thanksgiving dinner, the judge does not adjudicate cases as he passes the potatoes………
But ive said this countless times, that the distinct names of God are according to relationship.
Start with God first, As, ‘in the beginning God.’ No relationship. No covenant. God above all.
I’m here to help you work through your struggles. God’s word is deeper than all oceans.
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Are you being disingenious?
Yahweh is the god of Christians.
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You truly are clueless when it comes to scripture. Remember, i believe it, you do not.
I understand the dispensational connections, you do not.
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That you believe makes no difference.
Yahweh is the creator deity worshipped by Christians.
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How many years now ark has it been, commenting with ‘clever’ words the same playbook- asking for proof- asking for evidence- when all you need is to look up- see the permanent constellations, see the consistent design- per Genesis for ‘signs and seasons,’ and to see the utmost harmony with light and dark, the ‘kinds, ‘ the male and female ( so much under assault today) so Tks for proving what u reject is true.
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wow ark. you’re getting more “fundy” every year. lol. soon you’ll be saying “almost though persuadest me…”
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wow ark. you’re getting more “fundy” everyyear. lol. soon you’ll be saying “almost though persuadest me…”. God is the Only progenator or the human Race.. and everything
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This latest comment of yours comment is little more than drivel.
The HGP refuted any notion of the bible characters, Adam and Eve being the progenitors of the human race so I really can’t see what you are bleating about?
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Collins while being laborious, is obviously mistaken in his research , and in his conclusion, is a liar. He still could be a decent man, but clearly mistaken.
You never answered: what will u then do when he discovers his error, and admits he was wrong????
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He headed the original project. Slit wasn’t a ‘one-man’ show you half-wit.Scientists across the globe were involved.
Are you seriously asserting every scientist involved is a liar?
You’re round the frakking bend, John.
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Rest assured God is not impressed with half baked conclusions. People swear to ‘tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth ‘ while under oath only to be found out a liar.
Happens every day. Yeah, in science too. So what. The world thrives on half truths.
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Again for the hard of “Hearing” in the back of the room…. God is the only Progenator of All there is, and was and ever will be. He is the Source of all life and breath. And yes Doug, as Jesus said in the gospels, “He is even kind to the ungrateful”. And makes it to rain on the “just and the unjust”. Even those who although they don’t even believe He exists, spend great time, effort and talent in trying to dissuade others who do.
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The only deaf one here is you Barabas.
Are you that afraid to discover you are wrong on all fronts so you cling to the delusion for dear life?
As Jimi Hendrix once sang: “And so castles made of sand, drift into the sea, eventually.”
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You keep asking me a about stories in a book (actually a collection of writings) that you don’t even believe. Pointless to ask. Pointless to answer. Round and round when you should be going back to the beginning.
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Because they are taught by indoctrinated Christians as factual… Look at Colorstorm for chrissake!
The real problem is such revolting nonsense is indoctrinated into defenceless children.
And look how you turned out!
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i think i turned out “fearfully and wonderfully made”.
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And it is because you believe you are “fearfully and wonderfully made” is the reason why I challenge the type of religious rubbish you peddle.
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Yay. Someone using their brain around here.
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That sounds like a Claim to me. How would you demonstrate that Doug? Would you ask the writer of genesis if he/she were writing fiction or Mytho-History? Surmise all you want. How would you “know” for sure that the writer was writing them as “theological inventions”?
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Seriously, are you truly ignorant of the HGP?
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Im aware of alot of things. I was asking you to substantiate your claim
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The HGP refuted any notion that the characters Adam and Eve were the original progenitors of the human race.
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Congratulations. You have been awarded the hypocrite of the highest order award.
You generally have no use for Collins and the 98% of things he believes in, yet now, the HGP makes him appear as a genius, in which now he is completely credible in your eyes.
What will you then do when he confesses he made an error regarding the HGP and finally admits that yes Adam and eve were the first human beings on earth???
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Hypocrite?
Collin’s headed the HGP.
So what?
He accepts evolution.
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by the way doug, why would you need to continually counter and constantly deny something(One) you dont believe to actually exist? seems like the biggest waste of time, talent and effort in the world.
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A big amen to this post, Colorstorm! I was plagued with questions (and sometimes still am) but the beauty of Job is just unforgettable. Honestly until I read that, until the Lord revealed those passages to me, I’d never even considered the idea that I was questioning the Lord who hung the stars in the sky. Many people tend to present God as small and petty, almost human-like. To be big enough to have hung the stars means so many things, but one thing it means is to not be offended, threatened, grieved, or fearful of the things men do or their questions.
As to “federal heads,” the head of our table is now Jesus! He is sometimes called the new Adam. I think we people tend to get a bit too intoxicated about the power of our own choices, good or bad, and we forget the part where “while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”
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Yes, it’s not that mankind ( that would be women and men lol) is incapable of giving good answers, it’s that God’s questions are that much better.
Your stars. And oh, by the way, ‘He made the stars also.’ Who else could record such elegance and demure in 5 simple words if not inspired??
So the question: ‘Where were you…….?’ I’m pretty sure we are supposed to be made mute and revel in the glory of God.
Very good point about getting drunk on ourselves, that central tree is the gate to so much more.
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I actually stated that the slaughter between different religions still occurs.
In my last comment I didn’t assert Christians were slaughtering non-christians.
Although one could cite the Bosnian war as an example.
Also the Rwandan genocide.
We could also use the Troubles in Northern Ireland where Christian factions murdered each other for several decades.
The Armenian genocide was kargely religiously motivated.
There are probably numerous other examples to illustrate how ridiculous and vile ALL religion is.
I have a feeling this would not be a game you would come out looking good?
As for your second query.
Why would you spend so much time and energy defending a deity for which you have absolutely no evidence, and a belief system that requires you to acknowledge you are a sinner and insists you worship a first century human sacrifice, lest you spend eternity in Hell( sic)?
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“I actually stated that the slaughter between different religions still occurs.
In my last comment I didn’t assert Christians were slaughtering non-christians.”
yes, you did. and the Bosnian war wasn’t “christians slaughtering non christians” BECAUSE they were non christians. had zero to do with religion or faith practice at all, and you know it. or you should.
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The war was fought largely along ethno- religious lines, predominantly among Orthodox Christian Serbs, Muslim Bosnians and Catholic Croats.
Go stick it where the sun doesn’t shine.
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Was not a religious war. Each side was majority one or the other but that isn’t why they fought and killed Each other. You’re stretching. I live in the sw us. So summer is on. And just like God’s grace, there is no place where the sun doesn’t shine here
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It was an etho religious war.
Study the history.
Religion has been at the root of some of the worst atrocities and Christianity has often been at the forefront.
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christianity? you mean.. “christians”. admitted. there is a difference you know.
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No, I mean Christianity. But either word will suffice.
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i guess we could prob say the same about atheism/humanism… but it would be equally wrong. ideas/philosophies and theologies don’t kill. People do. christianitydoesnt kill and hasnt killed anyone. “christians” do and have, as i admitted. “christians” who are going beyond the commands and heart of jesus. a christian really following christ has no more desire or ability to kill another human being than a newborn to eat a steak. they just don’t have the “teeth” for it. those who pervert the gospel or the heart and person of jesus, make their own “dentures” to do it.
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I think we are arguing semantics here, but if you feel more comfortable then I’m okay with Christians.
However, as I consider humans are the ones who invented Christianity it is incumbent on those professing to be Christian to thoroughly examine the tenets of their faith based beliefs.
Although, if you wish to insist the bible is the word of your god,Yahweh….
Well then …Take slavery for example.
The Christian deity, Yahweh not only issued commands regarding its implementation but also codified it.
It was because of the rules imposed by your god,Yahweh, that the oppression and enslavement of Africans in particular was justified.
And we can include Apartheid in this mix as well.
It does get rather complicated, does it not?
Of course, if you were to acknowledge that the bible is nothing more than geopolitical myth and historical fiction then the idea of a divinely inspired text falls away and all we are left with is man-made nonsense and thus, the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of those who invented your vile religion.
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i would answer that if we’re talking about slavery and the OT ‘atrocities’, that there are less ‘fundy’ ways of reading the OT and interpretting who and why and how (and even when) certain books or passages were written. they reflect the practices and cultures of their time. some of them being ‘sanctified’ by god’s ‘voice ever’. (Doug, i told you that you were more ‘fundy’ every year, didn’t i) :). I personally doubt that God Himself would condone let alone regulate the practice of slaver… much less South African apartide, which was of course much later…this is where i was going with the difference between christianity and christians, God and those who profess to follow Him but don’t necessarily “reflect” His true character. But we were talking about Christians, right? not OT texts or history.
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Do you consider the bible to be
A. The divine word of your god,Yahweh.
B.Do you consider your god Yahweh was actually responsible for many of the things attributed to him?
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A. Yes, the Bible for me is, contains and becomes the Word of God. (not all the same concept, you know)
B. No, even though the Bible, not just One Book but a collection of several writings over the centuries, is, contains and becomes the Word of God for me… i’ve no problem at all considering some things written down by the writers as not necessarily the “responsibility” of God or reflecting His character. But none the less, i am still able to See God’s Word and Life in them. Yes, even the parts i have trouble with. A very wise man once said though Doug “It’s not the parts of the Bible that i don’t understand that give me pause. It’s the parts i do understand”. or something to that effect. we can all find things anywhere to pick at and criticize. We usually Find what we’re looking for. Spend your life rather looking for Life.
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Ark- I wonder if u are not intentionally recalcitrant to common sense.
Humans ‘invented’ Christianity? Really?
Saul of Tarsus???? Going about his business as a law keeper- then arrested on the Damascus trip…… by God most high……
Then there is an about face…. then the epistles….. the tours……. the antagonists seeking his death….. yeah ok, invented by humans. I’m
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I would like to say I am surprised you would consider the word of a delusional epileptic or the rank historical fiction of Acts, but I have to continually remind myself that you are a bible literalist and a flat earther.
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Yeah, his epistles are the words of a lunatic.
Read Romans 1. It’s understandable WHY you would make such an atrocious point, but you are not alone, for no one is exempt from God’s scorching truth.
Read 1 Corinthians 13. Read about biblical love, and not infatuation.
Read Romans 10/ 11 re. God’s faithful promises to Israel……. lunacy eh???
The more you wriggle like a worm, you are confirming your utter contempt for Truth. Sorry, just the fact.
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So you acknowledge the deity you worship is Yahweh
Glad we sorted this out.
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Nothing to sort out. Do your children call u ‘ark,’ Doug, or as it should be: Dad, pops, father…..
Relationship kind of sets the table.
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Why is this relevant to the name of the god you worship,Yahweh?
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You would be far better off, and more credible, if u just admit u
do not understand it.
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Dispensationalism?
What is there to understand?
It has no bearing on the fact you worship Yahweh.
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A. If the bible is the divine word of your god, Yahweh then,
B. The actions are those directly attributed to Yahweh. The genocide of the global flood and those actions directly commanded by Yahweh, genocide, slavery, racism, misogyny etc.
If you have trouble with the parts you do understand, such as those listed above, on what grounds could any normal person ( you?) continue to worship such a vile ( albeit) man made deity?
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Anyway, you don’t actually believe these things happened in history anyway… so what the issue? For you God hasn’t done any of the sorts of things you listed because for you, the God described in the bible doesnt actually exist. We arent far off, you and i. Except i believe God does exist and His people wrote about their experiences, dreams, “visions” hopes and heart aches. That’s what you have in the pages of the scripture.
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The problem lies in the fact most of your fellow Indoctrinated Christians do believe in these tales, and pass them on to credulous individuals like themselves and especially children who have not yet developed the necessary defense mechanisms to evaluate the crap that people like you peddle.
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“Someone is wrong on the internet, Marge. And its up to me to Stop them.”. Is there such a thing as a male Karen?
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It is something I come across time and again when discussing anything pertaining to religious beliefs with Christians ( and it would probably be the same with other Indoctrinated religious people) that, when they are faced with acknowledging their beliefs are nothing but myth and fiction double down and deflect, using pithy replies such as you have done to mask the fear that, deep down, they know they are building castles bade of sand.
Trying to “Stop” you is the unlikeliest scenario that might come of such interaction.
You weren’t reasoned into your religious beliefs so you probably won’t be reasoned out of them.
However, your responses, which when push comes to shove are generally evasive illustrate the fact you have nothing of substance to support your claims and you are, like most Indoctrinated religious folk, ignorant of the very basics of what you claim to be rock solid, unimpeachable evidence.
It is the simple fact that you ARE Indoctrinated which prevents you from admitting your beliefs are nothing but palpable nonsense.
Those honest enough to recognise this fact so often deconvert.
One only needs to read the testimonies over at the clergy project dot com to see the veracity in this.
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wise man used to say, ark “throw a stone into a pack of dogs and the one that yelps is the one that got hit”. if you don’t want to sound like the one “that got hit” you prob shouldn’t spend so much time and energy in commenting on posts you obviously disagree with. long story short, you’re wasting your efforts on those who are happy with their Faith and Practice. you’re only succeeding in “egging us on”. go back your photography and cakes. have a wonderful day
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Me ‘hit’?😄
If you think I am wasting my time then why do you comment on religious blogs?
In general I only respond to such religious idiocy.
Otherwise my interest in religion lies in its history and archaeology, something you have little if any genuine interest it would seem.
Seriously, are you truly so insecure in your beliefs you feel the need to constantly defend them in the public sphere?
Perhaps this is because you are well aware that all you have are spurious apologetics?
Besides, why would you deny me the fun of pointing out your untenable nonsense?
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surely, this isn’t just “fun” for you? it seems you take some sadistic (perhaps even masochistic ?) pleasure out of it. if i came to your blog and constantly criticized and bashed on your photos or crapped on your cakes… over the years, you’d prob get the impression that it was Me who was the irrational and crazy one. well doug, if our Faith and Practice of it bothers you so much allow me to extend an heartfelt invitation to sanity. “just say no” and walk away. there is no need or rational reason/purpose for your constant and incessant “bleating” against the sheep. “save yourself from this untoward generation” and just refuse the urge to “evangelize” the unwilling.
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Would you willingly and knowingly lie to children?Maybe if this vile rubbish was not peddled as fact I might think differently.
You have been lied to and duped.
Do you think it is ethical to indoctrinate children they are sinners who require redemption via the blood of a first century human sacrifice?
How about telling them that your god,Yahweh is watching them and if they do not believe and behave they will be sent to Hell?
Or ..what about indoctrinating them the earth is flat, no more than 10k years old, evolution is false and humans and dinosaurs co-existed?
Go read up on ACE.Accelerated Christian Education.
Once you are completely honest with yourself then you might appreciate my position.
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You seem only to “care about” and want to “save” christian children ark. You know the people who are actually killing people for their religion these days? Muslims. By the thousands every year. You say you don’t run across any Muslim blogs? You aren’t looking then. If you really want to save lives… you’d search them out and then aim your rhetorical guns at the Muslim blogs. Or the Hindus or ANY other religious faith tradition. But until you do, toure not atheist. You’re just another antichristian bigot with a big mouth
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As I have already noted, when confronted with such truth you will invariably deflect rather than addressing the issue at hand.
What are you afraid of …
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You’re a bigot. Move on
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Not in the least.
You on the other hand are happy to lie and deceive children.
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Better than killing thousands of Nigerian Christians because they arent Muslim. But you don’t give a crap about that, so bugger off bigot
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Of course it concerns me.
Religious atrocities of any sort are vile.
Didn’t you feel in the least bit ashamed that Christians were behind inciting the Rwandan genocide?
Does this make me qbigkt fur pointing it out or are you a bigot because you are a Christian?
Serioudjy, why are you afraid to let go of your Indoctrinated religious beliefs?
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No, youre an anti christian bigot because you only attack Christians, ignoring actual killing being done in the name of Islam. Bugger off hypocritical bigot
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Oh dear. The indoctrinated Christian is having a temper tantrum.
I have a go at Christians because I am familiar with the religion.
Yes, I am anti Christian.
I am anti theist and anti religion.
At least I am not a liar and I do not lie to my kids.
Why do you lie to your kids?
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You’ve no clue what I tell my kids or even if I have kids. You’re full of assumptions as you are full of bovine excrement
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Well, let’s take it as a given for now that you do have children.
Why would you knowingly lie to them?
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This is why you are blocked on my blog Doug. You don’t know when to quit. Bye
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I didn’t realise I was on the clock?
And it seems you have vindicated my assertion that rather than behaving in an honest, up-front manner you deflect and refuse to engage.
Very few Christians are prepared to deal honestly with their interlocutors, and you are no exception.
You block because you are a coward and in truth are only interested in the type of dialogue that one finds in an echo chamber.
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I blocked you because you’re a harassing, anti christian bigot. Bye again
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I am anti theist. Why does this make me a bigot?
You promote Christianity, a religion built upon a foundation of geopolitical myth and historical fiction.
You support a worldview that promotes the worship of a first century human sacrifice.
You insist all humans are sinners and I dictrubate children with this filth.
Certain sects promote Young Earth Creationism and assert evolution is false.
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Wow ark, to quote Luke Skywalker (with slight reservations) “every Word (almost) you just said is wrong”. I’m not engaging with you because you’re a harassing bigot.
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In actual fact every single word of my comment is fact and I challenge you to refute it.
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Here’s the long answer:
“You promote Christianity, a religion built upon a foundation of geopolitical myth and historical fiction.
(True, but I reject your characterization. And it also depends how you read/interpret the Bible and why)
You support a worldview that promotes the worship of a first century human sacrifice. (Dude… human sacrifices are normally INVOLUNTARY and against the wishes of the one being murdered. Not so with Christ. And again, see my answer above)
You insist all humans are sinners and I dictrubate children with this filth. (True, only because allmof history shows us that we all have the capacity for sin and great destruction to each other. Name one person, other than Jesus of course, who never “sinned” against either God or mankind. “Futile effort it will be”-My best Yoda voiceover)
Certain sects promote Young Earth Creationism and assert evolution is false.(neither of these necessarily identify my beliefs or even the majority of those who name the name of christ)
Caricature all you want. You don’t know me well enough to know what I believe or don’t believe personally.
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You may reject my characterization but are unable to refute it as it is accurate.
Voluntary?
According to the anonymous gospel texts, Yahweh sacrificed his own kid, and from the begging and pleading of J of N he wasn’t happy about it at all.
Of course that part of the tale is also nonsense as the disciples were all sound asleep while he was praying so who the Gehenna was there to hear him, right?
Smh… Stupid nonsense.
Sin is a religious construct described as any transgression against your god, Yahweh.
You have to demonstrate your god exists before you can condemn people as sinners and especially kids. Therefore what you are doing yj them is tantamount to child abuse.
It also goes back to me asking why would you lie to your kids?
You gave already admitted to some of the basics as being factual. I am betting you think J of N rose from the dead too.
Do I need to know more?
That YEC is a minority Christian view is immaterial to the simple fact that every aspect of your religion is interpretation and there is no evidence to demonstrate the veracity of a single claim.
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Sorry ark: to be ANTIChrist is actually to be PROlies.
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Sorry?Why are you sorry?
I am not specifically anti Christ as there was no such person as ‘Christ’.
And of course I am but the Antichrist either…🤣
I am most certainly anti , theist and anti-Christian/ ity.
And for the record, anti religion.
Theism is built upon a foundation of lies.
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Truth eh?
‘What is truth?’
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The earth is spherical is a good example.
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That is a statement, either true or not. Now then, PROVE that it is so. No inferences. PROVE the mighty Alps spin and gyrate at immeasurable speeds.
Prove a hovering helicopter is not really motionless, but spins……. see how your ‘truth’ claim is full of holes.
But what is truth? Every word of God.
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You mean provide evidence, yes?
Proofing is for bakers and maths.
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Again ark, the Word “attributed” is important. But won’t get into that hornets nest here.
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Of course you won’t.
You know how nasty a hornet’s sting can be I presume?
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Ark, you’re not really an atheist. you’re just an anti christian bigot. bugger off and “evangelize” those “lost in Islam” (make sure to have your kevlar on for that one) or hindus, or buddhism and bahai… etc.
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Good one. But note how ark here has only PROVED my premise in this post: trying to be CLEVER ………
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Oh John, Doug is clever. His intelligence is just misdirected.
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Clever and intelligent are not twins.
Cain/Abel
Jacob/Esau….
Intelligence is overrated. Ie, Degrasse and Nye the science clowns, yet they are worshipped.
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An atheist is someone who has no belief in gods.
Guess what? That’s me!!
I have rarely come across Muslim or Hindu blogs.
Besides I am more <em au fait with the idiocy of Christianity having been brought up in a culturally Christian environment.
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Clever and intelligent are not twins. Cain/ Abel
Jacob/ Esau….
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Colorstorm/ John.
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John, conversations with Doug like this are the exact reason he’s blocked on my blog. Waste of time and keystrokes.
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Please tell me why you post on Christian blogs and write about Christianity.
What are your aims / goals by posting on such topics?
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Everything you can learn about any of those questions can be gleaned from my posts. Feel free to read
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And will you let me respond? No, of course not!
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To be fair, if u are invited to read, there should be an open table.
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Thank you.
Makes a pleasant change for you and I to agree.
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Now if I can only get u to see there is more truth in scripture than u care to admit. C’mon, be fair.
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🤣
By the way, a young South African woman has just circumnavigated the earth solo.
Remarkable achievement.
South African sailor Kirsten Neuschäfer made history after becoming the first woman to win the prestigious Golden Globe round-the-world race. Neuschäfer was the only female sailor to contest the race which required competitors to circumnavigate the globe without the use of modern technology.28 Apr 2023
And she managed to not sail over the edge. Amazing!
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There is no edge.
People have been going ‘around’ the world since forever.
Planes (air) do the same thing.
Rest assured, neither planes nor Kirsten go ‘under’ our world as many love to imagine.
But glad to hear this interests u. Many people trying to disprove a stationary earth have changed minds after facing irrefutable facts.
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🤣🤦♂️
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Write a post ark. With Your verifiable first hand evidence. Guaranteed to be a crowd pleaser; your crowd that is. Do it.
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Reading requires no response. Not from you anyway. I already understand what your going to say. I’ll not allow that kind of Harrassment on my comments. So no… You can read.
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But I already stated you won’t ever let me respond.
Your faith is too fragile.
It simply cannot withstand scrutiny.
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Your blog- you make the rules-
I’m banned from atheist as well as some Christian sites. Go figure.
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Not from my blog, you aren’t
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Yes, we have an accord in that.
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Yes, we maintain a sort of wary detente.
😉
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Well played usage of that word!
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Goodness me, SONS of CHRIST need to grow up.
I think it’s about time you faced GOD’S TRUE Heaven & Earth Realities’ Revelations.
I know it’s hard when you don’t know who or what GOD ALMIGHTY is.
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Tkx for the visit, but do spend considerable time with all my essays/ pages/ posts, you may arrive at a more harmonious outcome.
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It wouldn’t hurt if you only took a look at only the last post of mine.
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